Electric Cars

[keyboardwarrior 2]

Hello everyone, first time poster here.

Due to having the worst year on record (having had 12 years experience) when it comes to used car sales, I have been left wondering what on earth is going on.  Searched the web to find answers and ended up discovering the cardealermagazine forum (well, the depressing 'who is doing well' threads anyway!).

A serious change in the trade as I see it was when...

• I noticed in the last few years a massive lack of good cars to buy and having to go to auctions where every man and his dog is chasing the same cars at insanely over inflated prices
• Dealers now selling there part exchanges rather than auction them off
• More and more and more people selling to WeBuyAnyCar rather than sell privately (never thought it would have taken off - how wrong I was)
• The plethora of new personal lease cars on the road, especially Audi's, BMW's and Merc's
• How everyone (the regular buyer) became price experts and expected that everything should be priced the same as what Parkers says its worth or what WBAC say its worth
• Elon Musk

Elon Musk - the man who single-handedly destroyed the internal combustion engine, gave the super elites the chance to enforce there agenda on 'climate change' while brain-washing millenials and now as his last party trick... he has killed the used car industry.

I have been trying to think this one out for a while and still keep coming up with the same conclusion. If electric cars are the future (which I detest with a passion) then think of the consequences for those who sell used cars.  If you deal in cars eight years or older (which I do) in the sub £3000 to £8000 category, what is it going to be like when you have to sell an EV that effectively has a battery that is degrading before you?

Let me explain. Today I may look at buying a 2010 Golf with a 1.4 engine that has covered 30,000 miles.  Lets say the Golf is valued at £5,000 and retails for £6,500. When you buy the Golf, you don't expect its fuel tank to shrink. Your more concerned that there is no lights on the dash, that the diamond cut wheels are in ok shape and that the timing belt (and the waterpump) has been changed.

OK, now, compare that to the future electric Leaf you will have to buy (seeing as the electric Golf on offer just now is never going to be wanted with a 120 mile range).  The Leaf is horrible to look at no matter how much motivation you need to just simply try and sell the thing, but hey its what you have and its all you can buy because the Government says so (I digress). You are more concerned that above anything else, the Leaf's battery is still showing full strength and that it has not suffered serious battery degradation, after all your battery is your fuel tank now and with limited range on a EV at present, no one wants one that will travel shorter and shorter distances. The battery replacement cost is insane as well.  If you are buying your Leaf to sell for say £5,000 when its eight years old, lets hope that 95%, 90% or 85% battery life left is acceptable to your future customers as replacement of a Leaf battery will set you back £5,000. Then there is another problem, how do you value a used electric car? A car with an engine can be valued based on its mileage as less miles on the engine usually determines the value due to ware and tare. However, an electric car does not have an engine so what difference does a 60k Leaf have over a 20k Leaf? Seriously, what are we appraising here?

This is the problem I have with this technology and this is why I think used electric cars are going to be worthless and in turn, the used car sellers out there might want to think about getting another trade.

If I am wrong in this, please please please let me know. I just can not see this working in the coming years ahead (and when I say that I mean literally the next year or so). Already cars are on the decline with these stupid ULEZ zones and anti-diesel cars. Its suicidal what is happening to the car industry and I just feel furious about it.  Good on President Trump for standing up for fossil fuels. Europe is finished.

Edited June 8, 2019 by keyboardwarrior

[EPV 631]

Jesus. Fuck being stuck in a lift with you. I’m off to find a dark room and open a vein. 

[CCC 31]

I was anti ulez until I sat in heavy traffic in Exeter with my windows open and virtually choked. I had the luxury of being able to close them but the people living by that junction didn’t. The proliferation of the internal combustion engine is what’s killing itself. 

As for electric cars then I’m sure the trade will adapt (and batteries get cheaper). You can just change dead cells on Lexus hybrids nowadays. 

Edited June 8, 2019 by CCC

[trade vet 704]

Hi KB Warriors 

Good first post.I agree there are many problems ahead for electric cars.Where is all the lithium for the batteries going to come from.Also the health issues associated with lithium and its disposal.I see charging time is now down to 30 mins at specialist charging stations but I don’t think that is a full charge.The technology is years away for electric cars to be popular but maybe not with hybrids.I tend to agree with Stalker,as diesels become in short supply,they will go up in value and will be in demand especially in rural areas.As for Tesla,they are yet to turn a profit and are burning through billions of dollars.

[NOACROSS 414]

Playing Devil's Advocate:

So, tell me- when you have to pay for an auto gearbox rebuild or any number of issues over the years on said (god damn awful) VW or other German product, plus oils, fluids, services, DPF's, DMF Clutches etc on your petrol consuming car where you're handing money over the counter at the petrol station weekly- this is a cheaper option than an electric car with no gearbox, clutch, engine, oils, propshaft etc?

Now, for me, anyone doing moderate miles a week like myself can live with an electric car no problem and the 200 odd mile range would mean I would charge it once a fortnight at most.

As for the batteries, they can be recycled and are- Prius batteries for example are fairly reasonable already reconditioned.  As above, the battery' is not just one battery, but a collection of battery cells, so in the unlikely event of a failure, they are being designed so you just replace a pack or two.

When you see taxi drivers driving something, then you know they are OK.  Have a look at the mileages they are getting next time you're in a Prius cab.

A mate of mine has a high mileage Twizzy in PX the other day- still going strong (I know it's hardly a fair comparison but even so).

Now I'm not saying electric cars are THE answer or the finished product but they are AN answer that we need to embrace. I wanted to hate them, but once you drive one, you get it.  Well, I did anyway, and I'm a dinosaur.

Leaf is ugly yes, but so are all little boring cars but they don't half go well, as does the i3 (fantastic little cars them), never been in a Tesla but they seem to fly past me OK.  That Jag ipace is a cracking bit of kit...

[DigitalAutos 3]

Biggest problem for electric cars is they can only be charged off road. That rules the majority of people in inner cities. Can't honestly think off a workaround for it. Even the idea of assigning people a dedicated charger outside their home, kerb/ lampost based etc is unworkable.Most homes have two or three cars and struggle to park outside now. This Orwellian idea of everyone silently commuting to work and plugging in their car for the return journey is so far fetched to be laughable. Most people can't guarantee themselves a parking space as it is, imagine the panic with people desperate to charge. I don't think any of it has been though through, just activist groups and politicians using it for their own agendas. Even if you could come up with some legislation to secure a right to park outside your house who's going to pay the billions to invest in the mass charging infrastructure needed. 

Personally, I think in the interim the hybrid will become more universal. These are becoming popular on the company car scheme now. i know two people how have the BMW 5 series and neither of them have ever charged them up. A few of the major manufacturers are heading towards the hydrogen fuel cell, this to me seems to tick all the boxes.

[keyboardwarrior 2]

Thanks for the replies.

I don't have a problem with hybrids - just have a problem chasing them down for the right price.  My problem is the FULL electric vehicle.  If your trading ones that are a few years old have the dosh to do that, great. However, its a different story when they are just a few years older. If you can fix a couple of cells for a reasonable cost then great, but I am not seeing evidence that can be done yet. An electric motor will be $$$$ to replace - but if you can repair them, then that might be ok as well.

I just can not see them being beneficial in the long run when it comes to selling them second hand.  A few traders I know who are a bit older just say 'i'll be dead by then' but for those of us who have invested time in making this a career choice and seeing how much the used car market can be literally rocked in a short period of time is bloody frightening.

Just look at the other areas that will be affected by this change. Bridgend is a classic example. China hold the cards, they will make the batteries and the manufacturers will have to buy them from China and all of them will end up building them in China as well. Jaguar are the only ones that are different by building the battery in the UK for the IPace, but that will change I am certain. All those folks at the Ford engine factory are not going to get those well paid jobs back any time soon. JLR are only delaying there move just now to China and Slovakia, they will go all in. Whats left?  Mini? Nope - OFF TO CHINA AS WELL.

All thanks to electric cars (alos China and the joke of UK trade decisions). So thank you for destroying the used trade, destroying the engineering and manufacturing trade and all the local garages.  What are Kwikfit going to do now - just sell tyres and do Mot's? 

With regards to traffic in towns - yes it can get busy and breathing in fumes is not that great, however look at the empty bus lanes and the stupid traffic management for cycles, 20mph speed limits and the new buzz word of 'public spaces' and you can soon see why there is congestion!!!!

Maybe some folks are quite happy embracing the Greta Thunberg's of this World.  Maybe we will see you glued to the side of a train one day.

[keyboardwarrior 2]

Oh, forgot to mention - autonomous cars and robo-taxis!!!!

THEY DO NOT WANT YOU TO DRIVE OR OWN A CAR.  They would rather you lived in a high-rise box flat, be in debt, work for nothing, be under the watchful eye every day, dont dream, dont even think of making a better life for yourself - just be a loser.  Thats what they want.

I had to laugh today (which is a rare thing these days) when I read Gove was taking cocaine on only 'several' occasions.  I wonder where he came up with the plan to ban petrol and diesel cars?  Probably while snorting a few lines in Soho. Junkies in power, no wonder we are going down the tubes.

[MSP Motors 39]

Give it a rest will you. Adapt or do something else. Shall we bring back the steam train and reopen the pit? Elon musk is a nut case. Tesla have not turned a profit and they may never. However people like him are to be celebrated, not moaned because he's made it hard for some second rate USED car dealer can't keep flogging old technology. Keep moaning and blaming others......

[BHM 994]

13 hours ago, EPV said:

Jesus. Fuck being stuck in a lift with you. I’m off to find a dark room and open a vein. 

 

[keyboardwarrior 2]

3 hours ago, MSP Motors said:

Give it a rest will you. Adapt or do something else. Shall we bring back the steam train and reopen the pit? Elon musk is a nut case. Tesla have not turned a profit and they may never. However people like him are to be celebrated, not moaned because he's made it hard for some second rate USED car dealer can't keep flogging old technology. Keep moaning and blaming others......

second rate used car dealer? 

Spoken like a true left winged hatred filled Corbyn loving progressive who just love to attack others.  You can shove it fella.

[awc1000 93]

14 hours ago, keyboardwarrior said:

Hello everyone, first time poster here.

Due to having the worst year on record (having had 12 years experience) when it comes to used car sales, I have been left wondering what on earth is going on.  Searched the web to find answers and ended up discovering the cardealermagazine forum (well, the depressing 'who is doing well' threads anyway!).

A serious change in the trade as I see it was when...

• I noticed in the last few years a massive lack of good cars to buy and having to go to auctions where every man and his dog is chasing the same cars at insanely over inflated prices
• Dealers now selling there part exchanges rather than auction them off
• More and more and more people selling to WeBuyAnyCar rather than sell privately (never thought it would have taken off - how wrong I was)
• The plethora of new personal lease cars on the road, especially Audi's, BMW's and Merc's
• How everyone (the regular buyer) became price experts and expected that everything should be priced the same as what Parkers says its worth or what WBAC say its worth
• Elon Musk

Elon Musk - the man who single-handedly destroyed the internal combustion engine, gave the super elites the chance to enforce there agenda on 'climate change' while brain-washing millenials and now as his last party trick... he has killed the used car industry.

I have been trying to think this one out for a while and still keep coming up with the same conclusion. If electric cars are the future (which I detest with a passion) then think of the consequences for those who sell used cars.  If you deal in cars eight years or older (which I do) in the sub £3000 to £8000 category, what is it going to be like when you have to sell an EV that effectively has a battery that is degrading before you?

Let me explain. Today I may look at buying a 2010 Golf with a 1.4 engine that has covered 30,000 miles.  Lets say the Golf is valued at £5,000 and retails for £6,500. When you buy the Golf, you don't expect its fuel tank to shrink. Your more concerned that there is no lights on the dash, that the diamond cut wheels are in ok shape and that the timing belt (and the waterpump) has been changed.

OK, now, compare that to the future electric Leaf you will have to buy (seeing as the electric Golf on offer just now is never going to be wanted with a 120 mile range).  The Leaf is horrible to look at no matter how much motivation you need to just simply try and sell the thing, but hey its what you have and its all you can buy because the Government says so (I digress). You are more concerned that above anything else, the Leaf's battery is still showing full strength and that it has not suffered serious battery degradation, after all your battery is your fuel tank now and with limited range on a EV at present, no one wants one that will travel shorter and shorter distances. The battery replacement cost is insane as well.  If you are buying your Leaf to sell for say £5,000 when its eight years old, lets hope that 95%, 90% or 85% battery life left is acceptable to your future customers as replacement of a Leaf battery will set you back £5,000. Then there is another problem, how do you value a used electric car? A car with an engine can be valued based on its mileage as less miles on the engine usually determines the value due to ware and tare. However, an electric car does not have an engine so what difference does a 60k Leaf have over a 20k Leaf? Seriously, what are we appraising here?

This is the problem I have with this technology and this is why I think used electric cars are going to be worthless and in turn, the used car sellers out there might want to think about getting another trade.

If I am wrong in this, please please please let me know. I just can not see this working in the coming years ahead (and when I say that I mean literally the next year or so). Already cars are on the decline with these stupid ULEZ zones and anti-diesel cars. Its suicidal what is happening to the car industry and I just feel furious about it.  Good on President Trump for standing up for fossil fuels. Europe is finished.

steady on chap,me thinks you are worrying too much, once the new electric stuff becomes out of warranty and a used car prospect the market will decide the value not us as dealers, it will simply be we choose to sell these or choose not too, as always time will tell which used cars we are happy to run with, as for elon musk and tesla it's looking like time will catch up with him - the established brands have laughed and thanked him for putting electric into the public domain - now they will wipe the floor with him and give him a lesson in branding - check out the latest audi etron's for starters...

for the record here are the latest new figures for may19 year on year, diesel down 18%, petrol up 1%, full electric/plug in up 81%, petrol hybrids up 35%, plug in hybrids were down 40% - probably due to loosing grant status?

the biggest challenge ahead for used dealers will not be how to value these cars but as always how to dodge the ones with issues, future appraisals - ears & eyes might not be enough !!

[Tony911 79]

2 minutes ago, awc1000 said:

steady on chap,me thinks you are worrying too much, once the new electric stuff becomes out of warranty and a used car prospect the market will decide the value not us as dealers, it will simply be we choose to sell these or choose not too, as always time will tell which used cars we are happy to run with, as for elon musk and tesla it's looking like time will catch up with him - the established brands have laughed and thanked him for putting electric into the public domain - now they will wipe the floor with him and give him a lesson in branding - check out the latest audi etron's for starters...

for the record here are the latest new figures for may19 year on year, diesel down 18%, petrol up 1%, full electric/plug in up 81%, petrol hybrids up 35%, plug in hybrids were down 40% - probably due to loosing grant status?

the biggest challenge ahead for used dealers will not be how to value these cars but as always how to dodge the ones with issues, future appraisals - ears & eyes might not be enough !!

Agree. Times are changing not just the motor trade people are now using recycled materials to build houses as it's eco friendly. Time will tell and 1 way or another we will just have to adapt like it or not. Personally glad somebody has started a discussion about this and not just another newbie talking nonsense. Kbw great post and welcome

[MSP Motors 39]

1 hour ago, keyboardwarrior said:

second rate used car dealer? 

Spoken like a true left winged hatred filled Corbyn loving progressive who just love to attack others.  You can shove it fella.

Elon Musk - the man who single-handedly destroyed the internal combustion engine, gave the super elites the chance to enforce there agenda on 'climate change' while brain-washing millenials and now as his last party trick... he has killed the used car industry.

 

wish you well in whatever you do, it clearly won't be selling used cars....

[Lazz 16]

The way I look at it its just a car with a different engine, the market will decide the values, someone will work out a cheaper way to fix the batteries etc.

we will just have to roll with it.

Just now, Lazz said:

The way I look at it its just a car with a different engine, the market will decide the values, someone will work out a cheaper way to fix the batteries etc.

we will just have to roll with it.

I am more concerned about this month never mind next year or the one after that.

[Wheelerdealer1 91]

I am more concerned about Brexit than electric cars to be honest, they need to cancel it or get the second referendum on the table, stat!

[BHM 994]

7 hours ago, Lazz said:

The way I look at it its just a car with a different engine

Correct. Although with a new set of issues but at least it won’t be pissing about with EGRs & DPFs.

5 hours ago, Wheelerdealer1 said:

I am more concerned about Brexit than electric cars to be honest, they need to cancel it or get the second referendum on the table, stat!

Cancel??? Second referendum??? The instruction was OUT. Too many lefties whining like a knackered diff on a Vauxhall Carlton. All this has shown me is what a shower of shit most of our elected members are - the days of me bothering to vote are probably over.

[sparky 274]

2 hours ago, BHM said:

Correct. Although with a new set of issues but at least it won’t be pissing about with EGRs & DPFs.

Cancel??? Second referendum??? The instruction was OUT. Too many lefties whining like a knackered diff on a Vauxhall Carlton. All this has shown me is what a shower of shit most of our elected members are - the days of me bothering to vote are probably over.

Yep. I spoiled my last ballot paper and would rather now watch Emmerdale over Question Time or read Viz over the broadsheets. 

I voted to remain as the other option  was just plain daft IMO,  now I honestly don't care what happens and sadly it's a case of I'm alright Jack. Sigh.

Anyway, electric vehicles in north Wales where folk still have dial up internet and bottled gas. Sure George.

[EPV 631]

54 minutes ago, sparky said:

Yep. I spoiled my last ballot paper and would rather now watch Emmerdale over Question Time or read Viz over the broadsheets. 

I voted to remain as the other option  was just plain daft IMO,  now I honestly don't care what happens and sadly it's a case of I'm alright Jack. Sigh.

Anyway, electric vehicles in north Wales where folk still have dial up internet and bottled gas. Sure George.

[CRW 73]

I was thumbing through a copy of Auto Express this week and it was certainly an eye opener to me. 90% of the articles were about electric/ hybrid, hardly a mention of anything petrol or diesel. Im not worrying too much down here in Cornwall but I suppose it indicative as to the extent manufacturers and dealers have moved away from older technology.  

[David Horgan 564]

We will all , "Well those that's brave enough to stay  " have to adapt , cant all be new cars can they , unless the dealers aren't going to let them go and that cant happen I wouldn't think 

Going to spook the techs of old , No gear boxes as such , No engines to fix , No leaks , No Spark plugs , EGR , Turbo , Starter Motor , No Cam Belts / Chains , Water pumps etc 

Just fuses , rewires , batteries , Connections , Volt losses , Dry Joints , Furring Up of Connections , Electric motors getting hot , Batteries Giving up altogether  Funny noise , whining power plants , Chargers not working  Keeping them all charged for test drives , Teaching all the customers how to drive the bloody things . 

can you imagine the calls , Mi cars not Charging , A; Have you plugged it in  

When does the cam belt need changing  A ; now but it will be £300 + vat 

I cant hear it , A Well F##king Listen then . 

[Daz_720s 0]

Definitely seeing a drop in sales of diesel cars, especially 4x4 vehicles, maybe it's just quiet or customers are shifting towards petrol/hybrid

[keyboardwarrior 2]

Well, I expect its going to be the worst year for petrol/diesel cars in living memory.  Nothing will get better until after we leave the EU and I don't believe its going to jump up immediately after October 31st when we are now supposed to leave (again).

Come 2020, the ULEZ zones will be just about in force up and down the land.  I predict by the end of the year we will be in recession as well.  More negativity fueling the fire.

I also see another widespread scrappage scheme coming into play next year with the new Tory PM to push more people into 'greener' cars.  If its 'Cocaine Gove' then we are definitely for the chop.

However, a recession could change a lot of the planned ideas for electric cars.  If its a global one (and I do think it will be and a pretty sore one at that), then the job killing Paris Agreement and all these 'green' agendas might be shelved.  It only delays the eventual goal they have but it will be interesting to see how much and how badly it will affect the motor giants such as VW and there massive push to electric cars.  I think China is in for a shock, thus deeply gut punching all the big motor companies.  Do you still want to invest all that cash into batteries? Hmmm....

[David Horgan 564]

Time for a new Government to change things yet before 2030 .

 

[It's me 615]

On 09/06/2019 at 9:25 AM, sparky said:

 

Anyway, electric vehicles in north Wales where folk still have dial up internet and bottled gas

/\ /\ /\ this

you cant even get a galleon of petrol in lots of places in wales (i love the place by the way)

pompostuas bumbling by cronies in chaufer driven v8`s

i see fiat have walked away from renault apparently they couldn't get any comms