Challenge

[Arthur thicken 13]

Well it looks like my ‘challenge’ has got people thinking, a very diverse mix of responses and some interesting ideas. It is a big part of the operating cost of running a car sales business and its good it’s finally got people comparing what they pay, if nothing else some of you may have ammunition to negotiate a reduction if you’re still with them. I’ll start from the beginning of April, I need to work out a fair way to compare, probably v’s the same month in the two previous years and as the months go by a picture should start to unfold, I’ll either be saving money and still selling enough or not, there’s no in between. Good luck to all and I’ll update regularly as there has been genuine interest in this topic. Arthur Thicken driving the prices down.....

Edited March 23, 2018 by Arthur thicken

[metcars 394]

1 hour ago, RH Trading said:

Why?

if it doesn't work cancel, no one is forcing you to advertise on the autotrader, I cancelled motors cause it didn't work, I'm not angry or mad about it, it was business, I cancelled findandfundmycar cause it didn't work, I don't complain, lesson learned (expensive lesson) I reinvested my money in something that worked better. I'm not delighted at the prices but am more than happy with my sales levels and profits generated as a result. cant understand why some dealers still use them if they're not selling cars and measuring the net profits returned - well done Arthur for being brave enough to cut the ties as he cant make it work for him. I have videos on all my cars, minimum of 50 great photo's 165, 5 star reviews. I'm not the cheapest but make sure I check my prices weekly as per my reps advice.  I'm not bragging but had a record January, not great feb and a very healthy March so far. Looking through my click dealer, leads and sales so far -  78% of them came out of area from leads generated by the autotrader. I don't advertise anywhere else as they don't work for me.

as for prices being different, I have a different package then my friend over the road but we both have 35 stock contract. I pay around £600 more than him per month. I think I get more for my money than he does as he is daily whinging about autotrader, he tells me he sells between 10-15 cars a month from them but he's on a cheaper package so gets less. You pay for what you get.

I'm old enough and ugly enough to remember advertising in the midland autotrader where it cost £30 for a double spot with 1 photo and 27 words, its a different world now and a different market but I'm selling more than I did then for less cost overall.

if you can make it work, sell cars and make a decent profit then happy days. If not then there are plenty of other channels out there, pick one (or 6) and make it work for you.

Sorry I think you misunderstood my post, I was being ironic. AT have no interest in who leaves, or whether you think they are too expensive, they exist to make money. Although, secretly I would like to hear what they have to say about pricing?

[Tom 164]

8 hours ago, Arthur thicken said:

Changes are in progress to remove reference to new car sales, but thanks for pointing it out.

Just down the road from me are you in Yeovil or Bridport? I'm in Wincanton

[Arfur Dealy 823]

6 hours ago, EPV said:

To me, as long as I am getting value, the price is what the price is. Of course i’d like it cheaper but as far as i’m concerned, I squeeze every drop of value out of them. If you are someone who puts 15 photos up instead of 70, or doesn’t do a video, or makes an ad sound like a spec list, or don’t use the tools to find out what sells well in your locale, then you are leaving a lot of value on the table. As I said mate, you are making it work outside of AT. Power to you, I just can’t ever see me not using them. I get just as much out of them as they get out of me.  

+1

[Arthur thicken 13]

10 hours ago, Tom said:

Just down the road from me are you in Yeovil or Bridport? I'm in Wincanton

Tom, we are in both Yeovil and Bridport.

[Tom 164]

6 hours ago, Arthur thicken said:

Tom, we are in both Yeovil and Bridport.

Ok I thought Briport closed used to be Mitsubishi.  

[Arthur thicken 13]

We had the Mitsubishi franchise there until November, it’s now fiat aftersales, used cars, mot’s etc..

[HKQAC 2]

On 3/22/2018 at 8:48 AM, Arthur thicken said:

We have 2 sites one on a main road and one on a trading estate, they both have 60 used cars, they are both authorised repairer status with manufacturers, one does ok off Autotrader, they both do about the same with motors. I’ve cancelled AT for one and cancelled Motors for the other. Both sites are long established and have advertised with both for years. We’ve cancelled motors for the main road site and AT for the other. I’ve put a challenge to both AT and Motors, measure sales for three months and compare the results against numbers sold historically, I believe we can then gauge the value for both, Motors are keen and up for it, no reply yet from Autotrader. I’m doing it anyway as on the non main road site we’ve only sold 10 this month with only 2 from AT at a cost of £1600 per month. The price of AT was going up in April and it made me think what have I got to lose, I really believe people do multiple searches and often forget which site they saw the car on. This is not an attempt to beat up Autotrader or Motors it’s purely an exercise to see how many we sell at each site with only making one change. I know last years not this year but it’s the only transparent way of gagueing value for money. If I get negative feedback I won’t bother posting the results, if you’re genuinely interest I’ll post the results monthly. Good luck to all in these tough times.  Arthur Thicken, driving the prices down.....

After reading this thread I'm fuming with the amount of money i've been spending on Autotrader in comparison.  I cant believe that some people are happy to pay these big bills.  So well done for taking a stand Arthur and I hope it works out, keep us informed!

Exactly as others have been saying is we need to make a point to AT that we won't put up with it, and we need to do so without impacting sales.  

Hopefully I haven't lost you all here but surely the thing to do so that everyone can contribute to standing up to AT, is that collectively we all commit to reducing our packages by 10, 15, 20% as an example.  If you can make the most of your forecourt and keep all of those spaces full with cars that are actually up for sale and not sold, in theory it shouldn't impact your business dramatically?

It wouldn't surprise me if on a busy month at least 20% of my spaces online aren't in use, either with a car thats already sold or even a space that I just don't use. 

For ease of numbers: 100 dealers paying £2500 a month commit to reduce there package by 20%.  

Total before: £250k a month to AT

Total after 20% reduction: £200k a month

AT losing out on 50K a month as a rough average.  These are conservative numbers and I'm sure we could get alot more dealers involved than that.

Best case scenario they reduce our packages.  Worst case scenario a lot of us will see if we really need to advertise ALL our cars on AT.

 

Depending on feedback, I'll be happy to make an online petition to see how many people would be willing to put there name down to reduce there AT package slightly, then I'll forward to Autotrader!

Thanks

 

 

 

 

[justlooking 48]

31 minutes ago, HKQAC said:

After reading this thread I'm fuming with the amount of money i've been spending on Autotrader in comparison.  I cant believe that some people are happy to pay these big bills.  So well done for taking a stand Arthur and I hope it works out, keep us informed!

Exactly as others have been saying is we need to make a point to AT that we won't put up with it, and we need to do so without impacting sales.  

Hopefully I haven't lost you all here but surely the thing to do so that everyone can contribute to standing up to AT, is that collectively we all commit to reducing our packages by 10, 15, 20% as an example.  If you can make the most of your forecourt and keep all of those spaces full with cars that are actually up for sale and not sold, in theory it shouldn't impact your business dramatically?

It wouldn't surprise me if on a busy month at least 20% of my spaces online aren't in use, either with a car thats already sold or even a space that I just don't use. 

For ease of numbers: 100 dealers paying £2500 a month commit to reduce there package by 20%.  

Total before: £250k a month to AT

Total after 20% reduction: £200k a month

AT losing out on 50K a month as a rough average.  These are conservative numbers and I'm sure we could get alot more dealers involved than that.

Best case scenario they reduce our packages.  Worst case scenario a lot of us will see if we really need to advertise ALL our cars on AT.

 

Depending on feedback, I'll be happy to make an online petition to see how many people would be willing to put there name down to reduce there AT package slightly, then I'll forward to Autotrader!

Thanks

 

 

 

 

Yep, already reduced my spots from 14 to 8 and removed the finance charge they added for april.

will just have to start “cycling” my adverts regularly to get all Cars seen throughout the week.

Edited March 24, 2018 by justlooking

[EPV 631]

8 hours ago, HKQAC said:

After reading this thread I'm fuming with the amount of money i've been spending on Autotrader in comparison.  I cant believe that some people are happy to pay these big bills.  So well done for taking a stand Arthur and I hope it works out, keep us informed!

Exactly as others have been saying is we need to make a point to AT that we won't put up with it, and we need to do so without impacting sales.  

Hopefully I haven't lost you all here but surely the thing to do so that everyone can contribute to standing up to AT, is that collectively we all commit to reducing our packages by 10, 15, 20% as an example.  If you can make the most of your forecourt and keep all of those spaces full with cars that are actually up for sale and not sold, in theory it shouldn't impact your business dramatically?

It wouldn't surprise me if on a busy month at least 20% of my spaces online aren't in use, either with a car thats already sold or even a space that I just don't use. 

For ease of numbers: 100 dealers paying £2500 a month commit to reduce there package by 20%.  

Total before: £250k a month to AT

Total after 20% reduction: £200k a month

AT losing out on 50K a month as a rough average.  These are conservative numbers and I'm sure we could get alot more dealers involved than that.

Best case scenario they reduce our packages.  Worst case scenario a lot of us will see if we really need to advertise ALL our cars on AT.

 

Depending on feedback, I'll be happy to make an online petition to see how many people would be willing to put there name down to reduce there AT package slightly, then I'll forward to Autotrader!

Thanks

 

 

 

 

You could just cancel your contract with AT? 

[HKQAC 2]

1 hour ago, EPV said:

You could just cancel your contract with AT? 

Yes you could do, but I think you're missing the point.  For dealers that rely on Autotrader but aren't happy with the price rise, we should consider collectively reducing packages to reduce our bill.  

I think by putting the point to AT that we are willing to do this we could make a difference.  

I'm not saying its right, but its probably something I will do going forward.  But if others would rather moan and do anything about it that's their choice!

[EPV 631]

2 minutes ago, HKQAC said:

Yes you could do, but I think you're missing the point.  For dealers that rely on Autotrader but aren't happy with the price rise, we should consider collectively reducing packages to reduce our bill.  

I think by putting the point to AT that we are willing to do this we could make a difference.  

I'm not saying its right, but its probably something I will do going forward.  But if others would rather moan and do anything about it that's their choice!

But it’s a business? AT is a business, not a public service we are “forced” to use. You either pay what AT want and utilise their business to the max, or you don’t. I wonder if 50% of your customers refused to buy cars from you until you reduced your prices by 20% how you would react?  You’d probably just sell cars to the other 50% and cultivate new customers? 

So how it’s this different? 

[justina3 518]

I notice Tesco has put its milk up from .099p to £1.09 dont see anyone complaining about that, I have marked my cars up by 5% as almost most of my customers use some form of payment card, my point is Autotrader are not alone everything seems to be going up in price.

[HKQAC 2]

17 minutes ago, EPV said:

But it’s a business? AT is a business, not a public service we are “forced” to use. You either pay what AT want and utilise their business to the max, or you don’t. I wonder if 50% of your customers refused to buy cars from you until you reduced your prices by 20% how you would react?  You’d probably just sell cars to the other 50% and cultivate new customers? 

So how it’s this different? 

You're right no one is forced to use AT.  If you read my original post, I said "It wouldn't surprise me if on a busy month at least 20% of my spaces online aren't in use, either with a car thats already sold or even a space that I just don't use."  I think this is the same for others, and you have to consider do ALL of your cars have to be advetised 24/7 on AT?  More and more dealers are rotating stock.  

And your point is different because Im not saying Autotrader should hand it out for reduced prices as nice as that would be.  Just the price increases don't seem warranted, there not selling me any more cars and i don't think the average time to sell a car has gone down (As far as I'm aware).  Your point would be the same if we all got together and boycotted AT in an effort to reduce there prices.

3 minutes ago, tradex said:

I don't think it should a surprise that AT charge different rates for different dealers, even if they are high volume, it's quite usual business practice, just one of the those things you would rather not know I guess?

 

Definitely agree it should be cheaper for people who advertise more, economies of scale is important. 

[EPV 631]

39 minutes ago, HKQAC said:

You're right no one is forced to use AT.  If you read my original post, I said "It wouldn't surprise me if on a busy month at least 20% of my spaces online aren't in use, either with a car thats already sold or even a space that I just don't use."  I think this is the same for others, and you have to consider do ALL of your cars have to be advetised 24/7 on AT?  More and more dealers are rotating stock.  

And your point is different because Im not saying Autotrader should hand it out for reduced prices as nice as that would be.  Just the price increases don't seem warranted, there not selling me any more cars and i don't think the average time to sell a car has gone down (As far as I'm aware).  Your point would be the same if we all got together and boycotted AT in an effort to reduce there prices.

Definitely agree it should be cheaper for people who advertise more, economies of scale is important. 

Prices increase. They rarely if ever go down. That’s the same for all businesses and services. If you don’t think it’s warranted then of course you exercise your right to take your business elsewhere. Personally I believe I get more from AT than they do me. That may well change when I grow larger and get more cars in! There are people making it work away from AT so nothing to say you can’t be one of them! 

[Arthur thicken 13]

There is something starting to bother me about this, it would be good to see dealers get price reductions by either saying they’ll cancel or reduce their package, my concern is AT won’t care and will actually put the prices up of the franchised deares who they said had cheaper deals. The last thing I wanted to do was cost anyone money, all I wanted AT to do was prove their value to dealers. 

[EPV 631]

22 minutes ago, Arthur thicken said:

There is something starting to bother me about this, it would be good to see dealers get price reductions by either saying they’ll cancel or reduce their package, my concern is AT won’t care and will actually put the prices up of the franchised deares who they said had cheaper deals. The last thing I wanted to do was cost anyone money, all I wanted AT to do was prove their value to dealers. 

I may be sounding like a broken record here but surely it’s up to each individual to extract as much value as possible from AT? It’s YOUR business. YOU should be making sure the advertising is working for you and knowing how much ROI you get from each pound you spend with AT. 

[whitestone679231 113]

22 minutes ago, Arthur thicken said:

There is something starting to bother me about this, it would be good to see dealers get price reductions by either saying they’ll cancel or reduce their package, my concern is AT won’t care and will actually put the prices up of the franchised deares who they said had cheaper deals. The last thing I wanted to do was cost anyone money, all I wanted AT to do was prove their value to dealers. 

AT will do nothing other than come up with more ways to relieve you of your money, they don’t care if a small percentage of dealers leave it’s a drop in the ocean to them, years ago I questioned why a private could advertise at a lot less than trade could..... same bullshit answer as normal and nothing changes.... if you want them to dictate your profit margins and how to run your business keep paying but if you want to take control yourself ditch them, whatever you decide it won’t influence them. 

[trade vet 697]

It’s no good complaining to AT,the chances are that they will penalise you for doing so.You must complain to the Competition and Markets Authority,they say complaints are confidential.I am in the process of doing this now once I can establish what classification AT  comes  under.I believe that  AT are abusing their dominant market position (over 40%)  and are operating an anti-competitive practice with their price discrimination.Should the CMA agree,AT being a PLC with a market value of £3.2bn could be in serious trouble.....So come on guys,the more of us who complain to the CMA ,the better.

[trade vet 697]

20 hours ago, trade vet said:

It’s no good complaining to AT,the chances are that they will penalise you for doing so.You must complain to the Competition and Markets Authority,they say complaints are confidential.I am in the process of doing this now once I can establish what classification AT  comes  under.I believe that  AT are abusing their dominant market position (over 40%)  and are operating an anti-competitive practice with their price discrimination.Should the CMA agree,AT being a PLC with a market value of £3.2bn could be in serious trouble.....So come on guys,the more of us who complain to the CMA ,the better.

If you want to make a complaint to CMA,they have now said just to download and complete the complaints form and they will establish the classification later.

[RH Trading 80]

On ‎22‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 5:29 PM, trade vet said:

OK,but how much do you pay AT and for how many.I am amazed you are happy to pay £7k more than your neighbour for the same number of cars.I go back a long time aswell,we used to spend £2k per week in the mag,we must have spent over £2m with them since 84.Apparently they give our guys £170 per month loyalty discount,while a franchised dealer with less gets £800 !

He's got the same number of cars but he's on the billy basic start up package as he begrudges spending a penny. I do pay more, but I get more. He's paying around £1800 for 30 cars and selling 13 cars (give or take) from autotrader per month. His cost to sell is around £138 approximately.

Yes - I pay more for 30 cars -  £2593 per month for 30 cars, From the autotrader - I sold 22 cars in Feb, January 28 cars, December 19 cars, November 25 cars, October 29 cars, so far in March I'm on 29 cars. Total spend for past 6 months = £15,558, total cars sold as a direct result of AutoTrader in last 6 months - 152. Cost of sale per car = £102 average for last 6 months. and I still think I can do better. My average net profit per car is £769, total net profit from those 152 sales in past 6 months is £120,232 as of today so my dms tells me.  He's a bit old school John (neighbour) and see's it just as a massive cost rather than an investment, doesn't really monitor, he's in almost daily though asking me to icontol some of his cars the cheeky bugger, he actually stocks about 50 but says he cant afford to advertise the lot.

So short answer is - Yes I'm happy to be paying more because I'm selling more and its actually costing less, its just simple maths. it works for me, speculate to accumulate and all that. I take the emotion out of it, I don't like everything the autotrader does and disagree with many of the new things they've brought out but its by far the best channel of selling cars for me - that's what my facts are telling me regardless of what I personally think 

how many cars and how much profit made on those sales have you received for your £2m investment Trade Vet?

[NOACROSS 414]

We do similar numbers (well 20 to 25 a month) without AT, so can it be seen as what- 20 plus sales in a six months period have gone to paying them? 

Apologies if my quick mental maths is wrong. V. Interesting all these different opinions. I don’t think this will ever change on here. There’s always going to be those in and those out. 

PS. I reckon you’d do the same just on their basic package. I could be wrong...

[EPV 631]

34 minutes ago, RH Trading said:

He's got the same number of cars but he's on the billy basic start up package as he begrudges spending a penny. I do pay more, but I get more. He's paying around £1800 for 30 cars and selling 13 cars (give or take) from autotrader per month. His cost to sell is around £138 approximately.

Yes - I pay more for 30 cars -  £2593 per month for 30 cars, From the autotrader - I sold 22 cars in Feb, January 28 cars, December 19 cars, November 25 cars, October 29 cars, so far in March I'm on 29 cars. Total spend for past 6 months = £15,558, total cars sold as a direct result of AutoTrader in last 6 months - 152. Cost of sale per car = £102 average for last 6 months. and I still think I can do better. My average net profit per car is £769, total net profit from those 152 sales in past 6 months is £120,232 as of today so my dms tells me.  He's a bit old school John (neighbour) and see's it just as a massive cost rather than an investment, doesn't really monitor, he's in almost daily though asking me to icontol some of his cars the cheeky bugger, he actually stocks about 50 but says he cant afford to advertise the lot.

So short answer is - Yes I'm happy to be paying more because I'm selling more and its actually costing less, its just simple maths. it works for me, speculate to accumulate and all that. I take the emotion out of it, I don't like everything the autotrader does and disagree with many of the new things they've brought out but its by far the best channel of selling cars for me - that's what my facts are telling me regardless of what I personally think 

how many cars and how much profit made on those sales have you received for your £2m investment Trade Vet?

I think you’ve mentioned a significant thing there as to why you sell twice as much as your neighbour and the cheeky bugger nicks it from you! 

[trade vet 697]

Hi RH

Some people might say you have been brainwashed by AT.There are probably people ( competitors) operating exactly the same package as you up and down the UK and paying a lot less.I think that is price discrimination and if you are happy with that,that’s OK.I would suggest that you sell more than your neighbour because you are a better player than him.As for netting £760 per car,I don’t know of anyone who does that,unless of course your mark ups are £3000 per car and you have high  prime finance penetration.....Well done to you.As for us,our advertising goes back to the start of AT in about 84.You are right,the magazine was brilliant for us,I may be wrong but I think the most we paid was about £1600+vat per week for 2 full pages in our regional mag.It was a different company then,rates were transparent and they would offer everyone the same discounts like before and over Christmas and also  give you credits for printing errors etc.Digital Autotrader will just continue to invent and get away with ways to increase revenue while they are market leaders......

[Earunder 69]

Not quite sure I get how you can compare the packages...

3 tiers...

Standard | Advanced | Premium
   Cost     |    + 23%    |    +65%

I've worked that on the average when I was trying to get AT to work for us.  We tinkered packages left right and center.  Advertising 90% of stock, then down to 50% of stock, just couldn't get a decent return from the money spent.  Always ended up us giving AT 60% of the profits and us getting 40% gross.  Just not feasible.

ALSO:-

You'll find that when you cancel they'll upgrade you to Advanced to show it works.  It gives you better advert placements so your stats start getting better.