Challenge

[Arthur thicken 13]

Just now, Arfur Dealy said:

I understand and agree 100% with what you are saying  

To quote though your website states 

Welcome to Motorwell Group
New and Used Citroen and Fiat Main Dealer

 

Changes are in progress to remove reference to new car sales, but thanks for pointing it out.

[Arfur Dealy 823]

10 minutes ago, Arthur thicken said:

Changes are in progress to remove reference to new car sales, but thanks for pointing it out.

I understand it’s really hard for larger independents to survive, the internet is killing your profitability. I don’t think there is an easy answer to the way the market is changing and it’s changing quickly....

[Earunder 69]

My package with AT was -

120 cars on Advanced Package was £9,300 + VAT

Went down to 60 @ £4,400 + VAT

[Arthur thicken 13]

3 minutes ago, Earunder said:

I know one dealer, who advertises over 150 cars, pays around £9,000 but sells 30% of his stock every month from AT alone.  You tell him it's too expensive and he'll laugh.  If it works, as it does for the majority, and more importantly gives you a ROI then it's worth doing.  IF it doesn't and in your case, mine too, then cancel.  I cancelled mine awhile back as it was giving AT 60% of my profit from sales generated by them.  Luckily AT were only responsible for 19-20% of my business last year (*even less this year) so it hasn't affected me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way defending the prices of AT but if they have customers that pay them what they charge who are we to say otherwise?

Most companies in such sectors with a service operate in this manor.  Look at Football Clubs for example.  Ebay.  Amazon.  Nothing will happen with the prices if they have customers willing to pay them.  Try telling some dealers to stop and come out of AT.  It'll cost them thousands, some hundreds of thousands and more than likely shut them down.  I get you're drive and spirit, I do, and I'm not berating what you want to achieve but you're tackling a monster with a huge axe like an ant with a twig.

Your friend is paying £13.84 per car per week. I'm not taking them on, I'm just offering them the opportunity to demonstrate pricing transparency, that's not going to happen is it? Also prove the value. The dealer you refer to is  paying £2,076.92 per week, is he certain he can match the sales directly to AT? Depends if hes got call track numbers on his adverts that he can listen to. Anyway, AT say it's about transparency, I think that's about right, I can see straight through them. If people want to advertise on AT good luck to them, I'm not trying to start a revolution, I'm just making a point in direct relevance to what I do.

[RH Trading 80]

34 minutes ago, Arthur thicken said:

It shouldn't matter who you are, it should be a price per car perhaps in banding, say 10-20 cars 20-30 cars and so on. Back in 2012 PSA wrote me a letter to say they no longer saw value in the franchised dealer AT supported deal, which at that time was £5.25 per car, they thought it was too dear. Apologies if you don't know  but PSA are Citroen and Peugeot. That's b******s about franchised deals differing from non franchised, their sales director told me a few years ago there would be no franchised dealer discounts, just ask yourself, why wold AT give discount to a dealer because he's got Citroen signs up and you haven't.

£14.42 per car per week. A bit stiff Trade Vat.

£15.10 per car per week, nothing is the same here is it, no one cheaper than me yet and if you say you are I expect you to do me the same courtesy of putting your invoice and contracted numbers on here..

let me get this straight - the only way you're going to find out if the autotrader is working for you is by cancelling to see if it doesn't have an impact on your sales Arthur?

as a franchised dealer do you have a marketing department? I'd be giving them a right kick up the arse. do they not measure it for you? I'm very surprised. My Click dealer website shows me exactly where my traffic is coming from. My call monitoring system shows me exactly how many calls I get and from where. I know exactly to the penny how much I spend on advertising and how much it costs and I budget and change campaigns accordingly, cut out what doesn't work, give new starters a few months trial and monitor and measure every penny. I notice you said before you're spending £900 per month on findandfundmycar yet you said you hadn't sold a car from it? that to me is expensive. get complaining to them

we all wish the autotrader was cheaper and this has been the perennial cry from dealers for past 20 years, its nothing new. to be honest I don't care what anybody else is paying, I care what I'm getting. what does it matter if Arthur is paying less - its not working for him. even if it was free - its not working for him

I cancelled AT thanks to some really bad advice 2 years ago for 3 months and encouraged to try Jim Reids autovolo and was the worst 3 months trading I had in 20 years (sales dropped from 30-35 to 11 per month)

I posted this earlier on a different thread

Motors - Cost £480 pm - 30 cars advertised  - 3 emails, no sales in 6 months. Profit from sales as a direct result of Motors - Loss of £2880

Findandfundmycar - Cost £245 pm -  30 cars advertised no enquiries no sales in 2 months. Profit from sales as a result of findandfundcar - Loss of £490

AutoTrader - Cost £2593 pm - 30 cars advertised - 57 phone calls, 19 calls from mobile app, 17 emails, 7 part ex leads (no deals) 4 finance leads (2 deals done) 22 direct sales - LAST MONTH! - Profit from sales as a result of autotrader £14,107 (net after advertising)

I wish it was cheaper and am not overjoyed with paying more but would be even more pissed off if I was paying that and not selling any cars or making any profit.

cancelling to see if you can do without it seems like saying I don't think I need oxygen so will try not to breath for a day

Question for Arthur - are you expecting to sell more cars or less due to this? Good luck

this is my own opinion, I know it doesn't work for everyone and it does for some but I encourage everyone to measure, if it doesn't work cancel - find what works for you but. don't make the mistake I made 2 years ago. things are tough enough as they are guys

[twerp 69]

Let me get this straight, you are big enough to have a £10m turnover but quibbling over £1600 p/month ?!

Dropping Autotrader will do zilch for your profitability

[EPV 631]

21 minutes ago, RH Trading said:

let me get this straight - the only way you're going to find out if the autotrader is working for you is by cancelling to see if it doesn't have an impact on your sales Arthur?

as a franchised dealer do you have a marketing department? I'd be giving them a right kick up the arse. do they not measure it for you? I'm very surprised. My Click dealer website shows me exactly where my traffic is coming from. My call monitoring system shows me exactly how many calls I get and from where. I know exactly to the penny how much I spend on advertising and how much it costs and I budget and change campaigns accordingly, cut out what doesn't work, give new starters a few months trial and monitor and measure every penny. I notice you said before you're spending £900 per month on findandfundmycar yet you said you hadn't sold a car from it? that to me is expensive. get complaining to them

we all wish the autotrader was cheaper and this has been the perennial cry from dealers for past 20 years, its nothing new. to be honest I don't care what anybody else is paying, I care what I'm getting. what does it matter if Arthur is paying less - its not working for him. even if it was free - its not working for him

I cancelled AT thanks to some really bad advice 2 years ago for 3 months and encouraged to try Jim Reids autovolo and was the worst 3 months trading I had in 20 years (sales dropped from 30-35 to 11 per month)

I posted this earlier on a different thread

Motors - Cost £480 pm - 30 cars advertised  - 3 emails, no sales in 6 months. Profit from sales as a direct result of Motors - Loss of £2880

Findandfundmycar - Cost £245 pm -  30 cars advertised no enquiries no sales in 2 months. Profit from sales as a result of findandfundcar - Loss of £490

AutoTrader - Cost £2593 pm - 30 cars advertised - 57 phone calls, 19 calls from mobile app, 17 emails, 7 part ex leads (no deals) 4 finance leads (2 deals done) 22 direct sales - LAST MONTH! - Profit from sales as a result of autotrader £14,107 (net after advertising)

I wish it was cheaper and am not overjoyed with paying more but would be even more pissed off if I was paying that and not selling any cars or making any profit.

cancelling to see if you can do without it seems like saying I don't think I need oxygen so will try not to breath for a day

Question for Arthur - are you expecting to sell more cars or less due to this? Good luck

this is my own opinion, I know it doesn't work for everyone and it does for some but I encourage everyone to measure, if it doesn't work cancel - find what works for you but. don't make the mistake I made 2 years ago. things are tough enough as they are guys

+1. 

Power to those that manage without Autotrader but you need to fish where the fish are. The majority of the fish are swimming around Autotrader. Fact. 

[NOACROSS 414]

We dropped them coming up two years ago- made little difference, especially when you factor in how many units sold go to paying them! We don't miss them at all and the world didn't end.

However, we are a small used independant, so maybe even I (who hate AT with a vengeance) would maybe think differently if I was one of the big boys. I dunno.  The prices are mental and it should be fair and offered at the same rate to everyone EXCEPT there should be better bulk buy discounts and everyone should get more stock for the money & in my opinion DOUBLE what they give now (like they do at Xmas).

[Earunder 69]

25 minutes ago, RH Trading said:

let me get this straight - the only way you're going to find out if the autotrader is working for you is by cancelling to see if it doesn't have an impact on your sales Arthur?

as a franchised dealer do you have a marketing department? I'd be giving them a right kick up the arse. do they not measure it for you? I'm very surprised. My Click dealer website shows me exactly where my traffic is coming from. My call monitoring system shows me exactly how many calls I get and from where. I know exactly to the penny how much I spend on advertising and how much it costs and I budget and change campaigns accordingly, cut out what doesn't work, give new starters a few months trial and monitor and measure every penny. I notice you said before you're spending £900 per month on findandfundmycar yet you said you hadn't sold a car from it? that to me is expensive. get complaining to them

we all wish the autotrader was cheaper and this has been the perennial cry from dealers for past 20 years, its nothing new. to be honest I don't care what anybody else is paying, I care what I'm getting. what does it matter if Arthur is paying less - its not working for him. even if it was free - its not working for him

I cancelled AT thanks to some really bad advice 2 years ago for 3 months and encouraged to try Jim Reids autovolo and was the worst 3 months trading I had in 20 years (sales dropped from 30-35 to 11 per month)

I posted this earlier on a different thread

Motors - Cost £480 pm - 30 cars advertised  - 3 emails, no sales in 6 months. Profit from sales as a direct result of Motors - Loss of £2880

Findandfundmycar - Cost £245 pm -  30 cars advertised no enquiries no sales in 2 months. Profit from sales as a result of findandfundcar - Loss of £490

AutoTrader - Cost £2593 pm - 30 cars advertised - 57 phone calls, 19 calls from mobile app, 17 emails, 7 part ex leads (no deals) 4 finance leads (2 deals done) 22 direct sales - LAST MONTH! - Profit from sales as a result of autotrader £14,107 (net after advertising)

I wish it was cheaper and am not overjoyed with paying more but would be even more pissed off if I was paying that and not selling any cars or making any profit.

cancelling to see if you can do without it seems like saying I don't think I need oxygen so will try not to breath for a day

Question for Arthur - are you expecting to sell more cars or less due to this? Good luck

this is my own opinion, I know it doesn't work for everyone and it does for some but I encourage everyone to measure, if it doesn't work cancel - find what works for you but. don't make the mistake I made 2 years ago. things are tough enough as they are guys

Best post I've read in a long long time.

I get why people advertise with AT and I get why people don't.  What I don't get is why people constantly bring up AT and not get each others opinions and feel the need to indirectly show or prove they are the ones thinking correctly.

There are no right or wrongs, no winners or losers, just a bunch of different opinions.

Is it the most expensive? Yes
Is SKY TV the most expensive? Yes
Are Bacon Rashers from Tesco the most expensive? Yes

I have SKY TV and buy my bacon rashers from Tesco.  I do this as the product, for me, is the best.  Heck of course I wish everything was cheaper, my customers probably think the same about my business and products. 

I don't have AT as it does not represent value for money for me and we do well with other media streams that others don't seem to.  That's the art of business.  Finding what works, what doesn't, what sells, what doesn't, etc.

[EPV 631]

6 minutes ago, Earunder said:

Best post I've read in a long long time.

I get why people advertise with AT and I get why people don't.  What I don't get is why people constantly bring up AT and not get each others opinions and feel the need to indirectly show or prove they are the ones thinking correctly.

There are no right or wrongs, no winners or losers, just a bunch of different opinions.

Is it the most expensive? Yes
Is SKY TV the most expensive? Yes
Are Bacon Rashers from Tesco the most expensive? Yes

I have SKY TV and buy my bacon rashers from Tesco.  I do this as the product, for me, is the best.  Heck of course I wish everything was cheaper, my customers probably think the same about my business and products. 

I don't have AT as it does not represent value for money for me and we do well with other media streams that others don't seem to.  That's the art of business.  Finding what works, what doesn't, what sells, what doesn't, etc.

2nd best post!

I’ve seen plenty complain about AT’s prices, like they are some sort of public service. The same people who charge as much as they dare for their cars. 

Its a business they are a business, like all of us. They charge what they can. You pay it or you don’t and good luck to both sides of the fence. 

[MattR 177]

My Butchers bacon is better than tescos. But thats just my opinion! Arthur, I want to see your results when yu get them in 3 months and think that you are doing the best you can to find out the best way to advertise efficiently. I'm jealous of your AT deal as many of us little independents will be, I've got a 12 car package (plus the banger bonuses) which costs me approx £100 per car,but it works better for me than other platforms. 

I'm not going to give you a load of abuse for your decision or your comments. Its your trainset, you play with it how you want. But please do keep us regularly updated with how it goes. Maybe you could post some weekly stats on here?

 

[SC Derby 259]

Tesco bacon the best 

[Arfur Dealy 823]

8 minutes ago, Earunder said:

 

Are Bacon Rashers from Tesco the most expensive? Yes

I’m gonna have to put up my hand and disagree.....Waitrose are robbing bastxrds on the bacon from, as are Sainsbury’s and if you ever have the displeasure to step into babe if the local Post Offices, they will tone uou blind for bacon... 

Can I try again...

I’m gonna have to put up my hand and disagree.....Waitrose are robbing bastxrds on the bacon front, as are Sainsbury’s and if you ever have the displeasure to step into your  local Post Office, they will rob  you blind for the bacon... 

[Arthur thicken 13]

1 hour ago, twerp said:

Let me get this straight, you are big enough to have a £10m turnover but quibbling over £1600 p/month ?!

Dropping Autotrader will do zilch for your profitability

Turnover is not profit

Earunder, your post is great, you obviously manage your money very well. I don't have a marketing department, I, like you have call tracking and see email enquiries, I've sold 2 off AT this month so far, I measure everything and am prepared to try new advertising portals, but it has to be measured. Things are really tough, our service side of the business is really going well but sales in a struggle, we're in an under populated but over represented town, not enough to go round, we do some repeat and local business , which is best as it's no advertising cost and you retain the service work after the sale, if you've done the job right. I'm taking one site of and leaving the other on, I know it's perceived to be a gamble but at the moment I feel there's nothing to lose with the under performing site. If I was doing ten a month off Autotrader on each site I would stick with it, the cost per sale would be £150. When I've had meetings with AT staff, and I've had a few, even they say that's too much it should be no more than £100 cost per sale. With some of the prices I've seen on here that's just not possible. 

[NOACROSS 414]

52 minutes ago, EPV said:

2nd best post!

I’ve seen plenty complain about AT’s prices, like they are some sort of public service. The same people who charge as much as they dare for their cars. 

Its a business they are a business, like all of us. They charge what they can. You pay it or you don’t and good luck to both sides of the fence. 

This is the proverbial Marmite debate.  I hate them (love Marmite). 

You're right- they are entitled to do what the want, they are losing loads of business by charging so much for so little.  Just how long will you put up with the price increases until you stop buying bacon?

Many more would advertise with them if their prices weren't insane- and the public (the only ones AT care about) would have many more cars on there to choose from, and all their sponsored advertisers/banners etc would get more traffic/results : and that is what they don't get IMHO.

The times they are a changing....

[twerp 69]

12 minutes ago, Arthur thicken said:

Turnover is not profit

 

Obviously, but I would not risk the cash flow for the sake of £1600 p/mth

[Stalker 180]

I think quite a lot of people are missing the point, Autotrader are providing the SAME service to everybody in terms of advertising cars. Therefore irrespective of who a customer is (independent or franchised dealer) should be paying the same price for the same product.

Autotrader are the best - but they are also bullies, and its all their way or the highway.

 

[Arfur Dealy 823]

38 minutes ago, Stalker said:

I think quite a lot of people are missing the point, Autotrader are providing the SAME service to everybody in terms of advertising cars. Therefore irrespective of who a customer is (independent or franchised dealer) should be paying the same price for the same product.

Autotrader are the best - but they are also bullies, and its all their way or the highway.

 

Agreed, and they know it. sometimes you have to get in bed with the devil 

[trade vet 695]

We need more proof,more  people to confirm  their deal with AT.It appears to me they are are abusing their dominant market position by operating what appears to be a random pricing structure.Traders need to complain to the Competition Authority,pass the word to other traders.I will be although I have no idea whether the CA will be interested,but I will try and persuade them.

[metcars 394]

3 minutes ago, trade vet said:

We need more proof,more  people to confirm  their deal with AT.It appears to me they are are abusing their dominant market position by operating what appears to be a random pricing structure.Traders need to complain to the Competition Authority,pass the word to other traders.I will be although I have no idea whether the CA will be interested,but I will try and persuade them.

Perhaps Car Dealer Magazine can ask for a quote from AT in response to the hoards of unhappy customers leaving to advertise elsewhere?

 

[Earunder 69]

2 hours ago, Matt Reid said:

My Butchers bacon is better than tescos.

 

Ahh but does it stand up to my wifes crucifixion cooking style ^^

 

1 hour ago, NOACROSS said:

This is the proverbial Marmite debate.  I hate them (love Marmite). 

You're right- they are entitled to do what the want, they are losing loads of business by charging so much for so little.  Just how long will you put up with the price increases until you stop buying bacon?

Many more would advertise with them if their prices weren't insane- and the public (the only ones AT care about) would have many more cars on there to choose from, and all their sponsored advertisers/banners etc would get more traffic/results : and that is what they don't get IMHO.

The times they are a changing....

I love bacon. Hmmmm...  Nope would still buy it.  I'd sacrifice a beer a week... But I love beer...

Anywhoo... It's no surprise and certainly shouldn't be a surprise that AutoTrader keep having price increases.  The equity firm who bought Guardian Media Group (AT), Apax Partners, are notoriously known for taking everyone and everything for every penny.  Nothing will change. Look into the Equity firm.  They do not care.  They will have a contingency in place just in case every dealer in the UK pulled out of AT.  

 

2 hours ago, Arthur thicken said:

Turnover is not profit

Earunder, your post is great, you obviously manage your money very well. I don't have a marketing department, I, like you have call tracking and see email enquiries, I've sold 2 off AT this month so far, I measure everything and am prepared to try new advertising portals, but it has to be measured. Things are really tough, our service side of the business is really going well but sales in a struggle, we're in an under populated but over represented town, not enough to go round, we do some repeat and local business , which is best as it's no advertising cost and you retain the service work after the sale, if you've done the job right. I'm taking one site of and leaving the other on, I know it's perceived to be a gamble but at the moment I feel there's nothing to lose with the under performing site. If I was doing ten a month off Autotrader on each site I would stick with it, the cost per sale would be £150. When I've had meetings with AT staff, and I've had a few, even they say that's too much it should be no more than £100 cost per sale. With some of the prices I've seen on here that's just not possible. 

That's right, unfortunately for some of us we do not get a good return from AT.

I've used the money from AT for a SKY Media campaign.  Promoting our workshop services and put a £2,000 budget to promote our PCP deals from Facebook.  We're giving AT a LOT of money but that doesn't mean you can't be resourceful and spend it wisely else where.

Have a look into those campaign ideas.  Workshops full, great brand awareness campaign and the social media PcP campaign is doing pretty good.  I'll be doing my ROI stats at the end of this quarter so not long now so will be more than happy to share what works for us.

[EPV 631]

2 hours ago, NOACROSS said:

This is the proverbial Marmite debate.  I hate them (love Marmite). 

You're right- they are entitled to do what the want, they are losing loads of business by charging so much for so little.  Just how long will you put up with the price increases until you stop buying bacon?

Many more would advertise with them if their prices weren't insane- and the public (the only ones AT care about) would have many more cars on there to choose from, and all their sponsored advertisers/banners etc would get more traffic/results : and that is what they don't get IMHO.

The times they are a changing....

To me, as long as I am getting value, the price is what the price is. Of course i’d like it cheaper but as far as i’m concerned, I squeeze every drop of value out of them. If you are someone who puts 15 photos up instead of 70, or doesn’t do a video, or makes an ad sound like a spec list, or don’t use the tools to find out what sells well in your locale, then you are leaving a lot of value on the table. As I said mate, you are making it work outside of AT. Power to you, I just can’t ever see me not using them. I get just as much out of them as they get out of me.  

[Hugh Jardon 0]

Interesting reading, lots of different views coming through. We all sell cars and I can't believe after over forty years in the industry that there are people out there making the margins we used too? Autotrader not only sting us on price per car but now they are experts in valuing part exchanges which they are not qualified to do as they are like estate agents they have an opinion but do not buy the cars! They add complication to the potential customer because every new car is different we pay a grand over for some and a grand under for others because of desirability, spec, ownership and condition, with them valuing the cars on our behalf they either make the customer think mine is worth more than it is and put us on the back foot or undervalue it and the customer says that's awful so I don't think i will bother. At least we buy any car like us are actually prepared to buy it. Now they want more money to advertise by affordability via finance budget search then feed those enquiries to another lender and we loose the finance income oportunity. Where is it all going they are controlling everything we do, also telling everyone our cars are too expensive and forcing us to constantly work off less margin or not appear on the top of searches. In my opinion unless things change we will soon be working for Autotrader.

[RH Trading 80]

34 minutes ago, met said:

Perhaps Car Dealer Magazine can ask for a quote from AT in response to the hoards of unhappy customers leaving to advertise elsewhere?

 

Why?

if it doesn't work cancel, no one is forcing you to advertise on the autotrader, I cancelled motors cause it didn't work, I'm not angry or mad about it, it was business, I cancelled findandfundmycar cause it didn't work, I don't complain, lesson learned (expensive lesson) I reinvested my money in something that worked better. I'm not delighted at the prices but am more than happy with my sales levels and profits generated as a result. cant understand why some dealers still use them if they're not selling cars and measuring the net profits returned - well done Arthur for being brave enough to cut the ties as he cant make it work for him. I have videos on all my cars, minimum of 50 great photo's 165, 5 star reviews. I'm not the cheapest but make sure I check my prices weekly as per my reps advice.  I'm not bragging but had a record January, not great feb and a very healthy March so far. Looking through my click dealer, leads and sales so far -  78% of them came out of area from leads generated by the autotrader. I don't advertise anywhere else as they don't work for me.

as for prices being different, I have a different package then my friend over the road but we both have 35 stock contract. I pay around £600 more than him per month. I think I get more for my money than he does as he is daily whinging about autotrader, he tells me he sells between 10-15 cars a month from them but he's on a cheaper package so gets less. You pay for what you get.

I'm old enough and ugly enough to remember advertising in the midland autotrader where it cost £30 for a double spot with 1 photo and 27 words, its a different world now and a different market but I'm selling more than I did then for less cost overall.

if you can make it work, sell cars and make a decent profit then happy days. If not then there are plenty of other channels out there, pick one (or 6) and make it work for you.

[trade vet 695]

33 minutes ago, RH Trading said:

Why?

if it doesn't work cancel, no one is forcing you to advertise on the autotrader, I cancelled motors cause it didn't work, I'm not angry or mad about it, it was business, I cancelled findandfundmycar cause it didn't work, I don't complain, lesson learned (expensive lesson) I reinvested my money in something that worked better. I'm not delighted at the prices but am more than happy with my sales levels and profits generated as a result. cant understand why some dealers still use them if they're not selling cars and measuring the net profits returned - well done Arthur for being brave enough to cut the ties as he cant make it work for him. I have videos on all my cars, minimum of 50 great photo's 165, 5 star reviews. I'm not the cheapest but make sure I check my prices weekly as per my reps advice.  I'm not bragging but had a record January, not great feb and a very healthy March so far. Looking through my click dealer, leads and sales so far -  78% of them came out of area from leads generated by the autotrader. I don't advertise anywhere else as they don't work for me.

as for prices being different, I have a different package then my friend over the road but we both have 35 stock contract. I pay around £600 more than him per month. I think I get more for my money than he does as he is daily whinging about autotrader, he tells me he sells between 10-15 cars a month from them but he's on a cheaper package so gets less. You pay for what you get.

I'm old enough and ugly enough to remember advertising in the midland autotrader where it cost £30 for a double spot with 1 photo and 27 words, its a different world now and a different market but I'm selling more than I did then for less cost overall.

if you can make it work, sell cars and make a decent profit then happy days. If not then there are plenty of other channels out there, pick one (or 6) and make it work for you.

OK,but how much do you pay AT and for how many.I am amazed you are happy to pay £7k more than your neighbour for the same number of cars.I go back a long time aswell,we used to spend £2k per week in the mag,we must have spent over £2m with them since 84.Apparently they give our guys £170 per month loyalty discount,while a franchised dealer with less gets £800 !