Problem with showing a prospective buyer the V5.

[GWC 0]

Hello to everyone, newbie here. New to the forum that is, I have been trading since 1982.

My question to you all is: do you show prospective purchasers the V5 if they ask to see it? I always have in the past without any problems whatsoever but a "customer" has just managed to scam me.

Someone phoned to make an appointment to view a car and turned up on time with a couple of friends. They made all the right noises and I was pretty confident the car was sold. One of them asked to see the V5 so that he could check the VIN at the base of the windscreen. No problem, I let him check the number against the doc. He gave the doc back to me and then said he was going to collect his wife from work so that she could view the car and, if she liked it, they would do a bank transfer. They left to collect his wife and were never to be seen again. Wine Tasters I thought.

Luckily the vehicle was registered in my name. If it had been a different stock vehicle I would be unaware I have been scammed. Six days later I received a letter from DVLA confirming I was no longer the RK. Apparently what he had done was to go home and, using the doc ref number, do an online transaction declaring himself as the new keeper that day. I assume he sneakily photographed the number while making out he was checking the VIN. I am guessing their intention is to clone the car.  The viewing was just a ruse to obtain the doc ref no. No doubt they have an identical car ready. This is a serious flaw in the online system. With a doc ref number you can apply for, and get, a V5 for any unsuspecting owner's car. The owner will have no knowledge of it until after the new V5 has been issued and they are on the system as the previous keeper.

Obviously the police are not interested. I asked them if I happened to see the clone advertised for sale should I let them know. Their response was no. They told me they would take no action against the seller. DVLA appear to be unconcerned if there is a clone floating about. They advised me to return the V5 to them and request they open an "investigation" and after eight weeks or so I would probably be reinstated as the RK and they would issue me with a new V5. They said they would take no action against the bogus buyer. They told me to remove the vehicle from sale until this is sorted which will probably run into next year. Thankfully it is not a high value vehicle, (I had it marked up at £9995) so this is not an issue and won't cause any hardship.

But, how do you avoid this happening again? If a customer does ask to see the V5 and you refuse, they are likely to walk away. If you keep hold of it in your hands and refuse to let them handle it themselves they will probably think you are trying to hide something. Has anyone else had this type of experience and modified their behaviour as a result of it? I have considered copying all V5s with the ref numbers obliterated and showing that to customers, explaining why and they can see the original V5 when they have paid their deposit. But that seems clunky and I doubt it would instill any confidence in a buyer and might put them off.

Any suggestions?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tom 164]

Im trying to think how many have asked to see the V5? 

2 in the last 10 years?! And that with them sat with me at my desk if you're that paranoid don't show them, but how many have you had? 

[trade vet 702]

That’s a new one.We never showed punters the reg doc,they were kept in a safe.We would show them the history and a copy of the doc which we kept handy.You could always blank out half the ref on the copy.If they are unhappy with that you will know there is a ‘ rabbit off ‘. 

[Rory RSC 596]

18 minutes ago, Tom said:

Im trying to think how many have asked to see the V5? 

2 in the last 10 years?! And that with them sat with me at my desk if you're that paranoid don't show them, but how many have you had? 

good point.

Never show anyone. 
 

good scam to get a V5 for a ringer though. 
 

 

[Tony911 79]

That's definitely a new 1. Will keep that in mind next time anybody asks.

[MAP 5]

You shouldn’t really be showing the V5, due to GDPR. Obviously if it’s registered to you then you’re not breaking any laws, but if it’s a purchase or part exchange obviously the previous keepers details are there and shouldn’t be shown, IMO anyway. Just covering your backside.

[Blenheim Car Sales 111]

show HPI as it has the same information on it to check Chassis numbers

[Halfpenny 114]

We've had the occassional customer want to look at the V5. Never thought about the document number.

Lack of interest from the police is typical. Sick to death of them.  I was test driving a customer's car when I was hit from the side by a LHD Bulgarian registered car. Almost outside the police station!  Driver confessed he was uninsured. I photographed everything including his Bulgarian licence. I found out he was living less than a mile from police station. I went into the station with all this information.  As God is my witness the desk officer looks at me and says 'Well? What would you like us to do about it?'...  F'kin disgusting. No action taken.

Last year our metal security gates broken open and attempted theft of a Focus ST via OBD port. I'd disabled it so they didn't get away. We have security lighting and everything captured on high-def colour CCTV - inc. reg. number of their van. Police not even interested in CCTV - just gave a crime number.

[Rory RSC 596]

1 hour ago, Halfpenny said:

We've had the occassional customer want to look at the V5. Never thought about the document number.

Lack of interest from the police is typical. Sick to death of them.  I was test driving a customer's car when I was hit from the side by a LHD Bulgarian registered car. Almost outside the police station!  Driver confessed he was uninsured. I photographed everything including his Bulgarian licence. I found out he was living less than a mile from police station. I went into the station with all this information.  As God is my witness the desk officer looks at me and says 'Well? What would you like us to do about it?'...  F'kin disgusting. No action taken.

Last year our metal security gates broken open and attempted theft of a Focus ST via OBD port. I'd disabled it so they didn't get away. We have security lighting and everything captured on high-def colour CCTV - inc. reg. number of their van. Police not even interested in CCTV - just gave a crime number.

Good way to get them out now just offer a test drive with a customer and they will descend upon you in minutes.

[RH Trading 80]

I've never even thought about this, and can count on one hand the number of times Ive been asked for a look at the V5 before purchase. will be wary of any requests to view it now, might be the start of a spate of them - thanks for the warning

[Frank Cannon 812]

34 minutes ago, RH Trading said:

I've never even thought about this, and can count on one hand the number of times Ive been asked for a look at the V5 before purchase. will be wary of any requests to view it now, might be the start of a spate of them - thanks for the warning

This, good post from the OP

[umesh 336]

Don’t get asked about showing V5 these days, maybe the odd one, once in a blue moon, and it's always in my office infront of me ..

One of my customers was selling his car privately a few months ago, someone agreed to buy it then a few hours before collection rang him and asked for the ‘doc ref no’, my customer not sure said he’d call him back and asked me what he should do?

I told under no circumstances should he give that out until the guys been and paid in full the sale has gone through, because he wouldn’t give the details the ‘buyer’ never turned up !

He rang me back a few days later to thank me again, it’s just a good job he was on alert to make that call.( I'd explained it was get a new V5 in his name etc etc) 

[GWC 0]

Thank you to everyone who has responded.

It is weird how we are all in the same trade yet we all have different experiences. I am often asked by a potential buyer to see the V5 before they commit to buy. In the past I have never given it a moment's thought and have let them examine it. Not any more.

Incidentally, I spoke to Action Fraud regarding this incident. The bod I spoke to told me that most weeks they see about one hundred and fifty cases of this happening. He said it is unusual to see it happen to a motor trader, almost all cases are private people who have their cars advertised on Autotrader or ebay. That would make sense because even if it did happen to a trader he wouldn't know about it because it is rare for the car to be registered to him so he would not receive a confirmation letter. He also told me that DVLA are well aware of this flaw in the online system, it being open to this type of fraudulent behaviour, but they are not particularly bothered by it. If the cloned car is taxed they are receiving double bubble for one VRM.

One other problem I foresee is when it is eventually sorted and I have sold the car, my customer might get some grief due to the behaviour of the driver of the cloned car. It is possible my customer will receive parking or speeding fines through the post , get fed up with it, come back compaining to me and ask for a refund.

I suppose I can't complain. Considering how long I have been trading, I was probably on borrowed time before I had a customer pull a fast one.

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by GWC
spelling

[It's me 615]

the only time I can think of to show a v5 is to show no previous owners

I've messaged a few dealers i know and like on autotrader over the last few years to remove the ref number in their photos because if a customer wants to screw them they can use the number to make up a sold name and address 

thinking back over the years when mr smarty pants insisted on having the log book to cross reference the via numbers they often didnt buy or if they did they always turned out to be the biggest pains in the butt longer term 

[Rory RSC 596]

4 hours ago, GWC said:

Thank you to everyone who has responded.

It is weird how we are all in the same trade yet we all have different experiences. I am often asked by a potential buyer to see the V5 before they commit to buy. In the past I have never given it a moment's thought and have let them examine it. Not any more.

Incidentally, I spoke to Action Fraud regarding this incident. The bod I spoke to told me that most weeks they see about one hundred and fifty cases of this happening. He said it is unusual to see it happen to a motor trader, almost all cases are private people who have their cars advertised on Autotrader or ebay. That would make sense because even if it did happen to a trader he wouldn't know about it because it is rare for the car to be registered to him so he would not receive a confirmation letter. He also told me that DVLA are well aware of this flaw in the online system, it being open to this type of fraudulent behaviour, but they are not particularly bothered by it. If the cloned car is taxed they are receiving double bubble for one VRM.

One other problem I foresee is when it is eventually sorted and I have sold the car, my customer might get some grief due to the behaviour of the driver of the cloned car. It is possible my customer will receive parking or speeding fines through the post , get fed up with it, come back compaining to me and ask for a refund.

I suppose I can't complain. Considering how long I have been trading, I was probably on borrowed time before I had a customer pull a fast one.

 

Could buy and sell a car with a drug marker, firearms marker or anything anyway mate and be non the wiser til you or the customers pulled out at the side of the road. Not much you can do.

[A & S 20]

Never even thought someone would do this. Given doc ref numbers out too many times after deposit has been paid, so customer can get road tax before he/she turns up to collect their new car. Try to be helpful much as I can to customers for an easy transaction for them and us. Thinking about it could of shot myself in the foot. 

Never going to pass on doc ref no. again until handing car over once paid in full.

[Frank Cannon 812]

13 hours ago, It's me said:

 

thinking back over the years when mr smarty pants insisted on having the log book to cross reference the via numbers they often didnt buy or if they did they always turned out to be the biggest pains in the butt longer term 

This spot on.....handed a deposit back few weeks back to such a train spotter.

.... ffs my cars come with a hpi report anyway but not good enough for Mr Adrian 'all car car dealers are sharks' Mole....

....with a Fiesta reminding me of the latest Dulux white emulsion color pallette.