On Court Day......... what happenes

[Blenheim Car Sales 111]

On a previous post i was grateful to members on what format the mediation process takes and it was of great help with your experiences, I am in court Early April................   not going to cover the content of the case its happening so today i was hopeful of gaining incite into what happens at this point

I am with Lawgistics is is worth having one of there lawyers for that day ???   reason i ask is i am pretty happy with the  case, know what is the  main point of my defence is going to be and i am happy  i can put this over in an easy to understand way

so if you could educate me to what happens please, I seriously have no idea and its this part of the process that is the worry, I am perfectly happy i have a robust defence i just need to have the inner workings of what they do on this day in court, Format times scale ect anything i should  know from members experiences

 

 

[Del Boy 76]

It’s quite straight forward. 

You will arrive and need to sign in. When I went to court the receptionist was sat at a desk in the middle of the waiting room. 

Unfortunately everyone sits in the same room so whoever you are meeting in court will likely be sat near you. 

The receptionist will call each case one at a time. I had to arrive at 10am and was not seen until 4pm so sitting in the waiting room along with the claimant sitting 5 feet away with his entire family was not fun! 

Eventually you’ll go in and the judge will be sat there, he/she will probably ask the claimant for their version of events first then move to the defendant. 

Eventually the judge will make a ‘judgement’ and all will be over. 

One thing I will point out though... when I went a couple years back I was adamant I was going to win. I couldn’t see any way on this earth I wouldn’t... the judge ruled 50/50 but I was still gutted. 

[NOACROSS 414]

It’s like going for a job interview in a really big corporate, mixed with going through airport security/waiting for your plane (that you think may have engine trouble) in a crap lounge with the great unwashed. 

I would recommend the advocate. It’s only a couple of hundred quid and they are usually switched on and mostly solicitors or, if you’re lucky, a barrister -as they often don’t have enough advocates- so the solicitors or barristers take up most of the slack  

When you get called in, it’s like going to the headmaster’s office (in the old days). Some will have a big clock on the desk and he’ll set a timer. 

The ‘judge’ will do pretty much all the talking and you will be told when you can talk. The advocate knows the system and will do the talking mostly for you.

The few I’ve been to over the years (three or four I think) don’t last long-maybe 20 minutes or so.

It’s one of those things that is worse the first time.

if you go for  the advocate, it’s a lot less daunting. And they will attempt to mediate/come to an out of court agreement with your complainant just before going in, so they ask you to get there at least 30 mins before the hearing time .

 

 

[Dave2302 387]

6 minutes ago, NOACROSS said:

It’s like going for a job interview in a really big corporate, mixed with going through airport security/waiting for your plane (that you think may have engine trouble) in a crap lounge with the great unwashed. 

I would recommend the advocate. It’s only a couple of hundred quid and they are usually switched on and mostly solicitors or, if you’re lucky, a barrister -as they often don’t have enough advocates- so the solicitors or barristers take up most of the slack  

When you get called in, it’s like going to the headmaster’s office (in the old days). Some will have a big clock on the desk and he’ll set a timer. 

The ‘judge’ will do pretty much all the talking and you will be told when you can talk. The advocate knows the system and will do the talking mostly for you.

The few I’ve been to over the years (three or four I think) don’t last long-maybe 20 minutes or so.

It’s one of those things that is worse the first time.

if you go for  the advocate, it’s a lot less daunting. And they will attempt to mediate/come to an out of court agreement with your complainant just before going in, so they ask you to get there at least 30 mins before the hearing time .

 

 

Exactly this, and go there expecting to lose it, if you don't then great !!

[Blenheim Car Sales 111]

Gentlemen, Useful incite, I thought it lasted 2 hours not twenty minutes,

If Judge does most of the talking then did you  feel he knew everything about the case and gave you the confidence he had a good understanding of  your side and defence ??

 

I will have a think about the Lawgistics representative, 

[Rory RSC 596]

I haven’t been. Yet. Sure it will happen at some point.

I would take the advocate for first time.

[XFS 70]

Assuming it’s a County Court. My experience is that it’s pretty informal for civil cases. If you are absolutely sure of your facts and the legalities and feel you can present a good case, do it yourself. Some judges allow lay persons quite a lot of leeway. It pays to be well dressed, respectful and never get angry or confrontational and never, never argue with the judge. My view is that if you are able to represent yourself, you have a better chance of winning. Civil case rest on the balance of probability and who the Judge believes as well as evidence. A good impression counts for a lot.

Also, if the other party is being represented, be wary of them, you may we’ll meet up in the ante room before the case. Don’t let anything slip which helps the opposition. Their agent may be very friendly and try to get a handle on you, just be careful what you say.

proceduraly, the judge will keep you right. You will probably be in a small court room sitting at opposite sides of a table, it will be very informal.

if you feel you want to represent yourself but are a little unsure of certain aspects, you could take a lawyer along as advisor. They would sit with you, but would only be there to advise on legal points not represent you.

Good luck!

[have a word with the wife 299]

on your paperwork you will be told how long they think the case will last [maybe one hour] the judge normally reads the case before you go in from paperwork submitted, he/she will make notes on this and ask the defendant/claimant more detail on what hes noted.

claimant speaks first, to present there case, then its your turn, you must make sure your paperwork is in order, ready to put down the claimant in any defence you have, use a highlighter on the paperwork youve received from the other side pre court day.

feel free to cross examine at any time, dont be rude, be smartly dressed but not over the top, look like a worker who knows his job inside out, if the judge interupts you, apologise, and remind the judge that "in your ** years of trading you have never been in this situation before " 

[NOACROSS 414]

It can go on longer but I’ve never known it. Depends how complicated it is. 

I’m certain that there’s not two hours allocated for it. You may get told to go out and wait and they’ll call you back in. 

It’s  luck of the draw whether they understand or care about your case and your viewpoint. They are just glorified members of the public is how I understand it.

Stealing AD’s line: Being open, honest and transparent goes a long way. One I had, my complainant was a horrid rude, shouty individual and it did not go down well with the ‘judge’. 

I do get the feeling that we as the motor trade/company that can (allegedly) afford to lose, are instantly at a disadvantage I must admit. 

Edited March 14, 2019 by NOACROSS

[Blenheim Car Sales 111]

My plan was to defend myself not because of money saving just because i believe i know the case inside out far better than an advocate who may have 10 other cases that week, I think to a judge it will come across better for me if i am there defending myself< i think i have all my main points sorted and can show  i am not at fault as i would need to

 

Will i only know  if Plaintiff is represented on the day of the case ?? Is Plaintiff going to be  alone also no family no friends ??? is that the way it works

[XFS 70]

Another thing. I don’t know how complex this case is, but if it’s important...ie a lot at stake, it may be worth running all the paperwork passed a solicitor even if you are representing yourself. The outcome of many cases rest on paper and procedure.

For example, has the plaintif complied with everything is respect of sending you copies of the relevant documentation within the timescales etc.

[Blenheim Car Sales 111]

lawgistics has made sure i am compliant, You are right you can not rely on anything that has not already been submitted to the court, I have done exactly that, Everything i will be relying on in court has already been submitted to the court as evidences or supporting paperwork

[NOACROSS 414]

23 minutes ago, Blenheim Car Sales said:

My plan was to defend myself not because of money saving just because i believe i know the case inside out far better than an advocate who may have 10 other cases that week, I think to a judge it will come across better for me if i am there defending myself< i think i have all my main points sorted and can show  i am not at fault as i would need to

 

Will i only know  if Plaintiff is represented on the day of the case ?? Is Plaintiff going to be  alone also no family no friends ??? is that the way it works

I never have known until on the day/at the time.  Last one turned up with a barrister.  He was quite nice to be fair and we negotiated a deal half an hour before, so as not to go through with the hearing.  We still had to go in briefly and explain to the 'judge'.

The advocate is great value and will give you a bit more of the belt and braces feel, if not just a bit of moral support helps too. Also other things they can protect you from, like negotiating a settlement or a compromise as well as insisting it's covered by a non-disclosure type clause (I forget the name of it) where the other party is legally bound not to be able to defame you online etc.

[Blenheim Car Sales 111]

court papers read .....................will take no more than 3 hours 

[justina3 518]

Can i pick up on a comment you made " i am pretty happy with the  case," some would say we are quite lucky in the advise open to me, a HMRC officer a solicitor a doctor and some right random odd balls i wont bother mentioning. 

I recall a situation where we took a cement supplier to court and i said to my brief i am happy with the case and she snarled trust me happy would have been settling this before we put it in the hands of the system i now lose a big element of control. 

Those words have stuck with me to this day, and she was right we lost. 

 

 

 

[trade vet 702]

5 minutes ago, Blenheim Car Sales said:

court papers read .....................will take no more than 3 hours 

That is doubtfull.You may be sitting waiting for a while.Some good advice so far.The judge will rely on the proven facts e.g. claimant buys car,car breaks down,claimant has huge bill,defendant won’t pay and sale is covered by CRA.If the defence is something like the car was being used as a Taxi ( by a third party)rally car or that the claimant was adding chip fat to the diesel etc you will have to prove without doubt that was the case.You have to factor in you will probably get points deducted for being a used car dealer,so do not look like one,be polite and look at the judge at all times......I wish you the best of luck.

[Blenheim Car Sales 111]

Thanks all, Your all adding valuable information, I do now have a greater understanding of procedure and what to expect and that alone makes it a little less daunting, I will report back how it went, Not getting to optimistic i am sure Judge has me labelled as a rouge already just because of the profession i am in, 

[BHM 994]

1 hour ago, Del Boy said:

It’s quite straight forward. 

You will arrive and need to sign in. When I went to court the receptionist was sat at a desk in the middle of the waiting room. 

Unfortunately everyone sits in the same room so whoever you are meeting in court will likely be sat near you. 

The receptionist will call each case one at a time. I had to arrive at 10am and was not seen until 4pm so sitting in the waiting room along with the claimant sitting 5 feet away with his entire family was not fun! 

Eventually you’ll go in and the judge will be sat there, he/she will probably ask the claimant for their version of events first then move to the defendant. 

Eventually the judge will make a ‘judgement’ and all will be over. 

One thing I will point out though... when I went a couple years back I was adamant I was going to win. I couldn’t see any way on this earth I wouldn’t... the judge ruled 50/50 but I was still gutted. 

As this chap says you arrive for 10am, the judge decides the running order & you sit in the waiting room for as long as it takes to be called.

Assuming the judge is happy that all information is present the case will proceed & take as long as it takes - it could be 20 minutes, it could be 2 hours.

Also see TV’s post above.

Assume it’ll be an all day job, assume nothing else (your opposition might pull a rabbit out of the hat) & expect to lose then you won’t be disappointed at the outcome.

PS as you’re a secondhand car dealer defendant don’t expect to win. The only person I know of who claims to have won is Arfur Dealy of this forum - I don’t personally know a single motor trader who’s been the defendant & won! Best of luck anyway.

[XFS 70]

I,ve won in court as a defendant 5 times in the last 30 years, two criminal cases, three civil. Used a lawyer once as the case was to complex for me.

Three of the cases were wearing my motor trader hat, although none were against punters to be fair.

[It's me 615]

44 minutes ago, BHM said:

 

PS as you’re a secondhand car dealer defendant don’t expect to win. The only person I know of who claims to have won is Arfur Dealy of this forum - I don’t personally know a single motor trader who’s been the defendant & won! Best of luck anyway.

hello

i won

the only thing i see to think i can add is get your paperwork in order

read read and read your claimants paperwork highlighting anything wrong

write on a seperate paper key points and number them on claimants paperwork

keep away from them in waiting room

go tidy but no pointy shoes

whatever you do take a bottle of water as my throat went very dry within 5 minutes there was water available but just to be sure

preparation preparation preparation

go to bed early and no alcohol and get their in good time,my court was 30 miles rather than a more local one and i got stuck in traffic and couldnt find anywhere to park

[have a word with the wife 299]

i won too 

and they appealed

and they lost the appeal.

blenheim, in a few days [unless youve done this already] you will be exchanging papers that you/they will rely on in court, [do not miss the deadline] these papers will give you a good insight, examine it most carefully [hopefully i advised before on the other thread you asked for "proof" of losses] and pick out points that you can rely on in court for your defence, a simple slip by the other side in there signed for statement of facts [ there story] can crash the case, [ i won by pointing out / proving  [amongst other things] the vehicle was driven to destruction, the claimant denied this and i simply asked the judge and the claimant to see paragraph 12 of the witness statement, the claimant denied it but i pointed out there, paragraph 12, you continued your journey] dont forget too, and i hate to say this, if you loose, you ask for the car back in any payout told by the judge, easily forgot! 

if you win, keep away from claimant after the case in court, listen very carefully to the judge, [addressed sir/madam] only answer questions your asked, do not confuse the judge with jibber jabber [kiss keep it simple] unless it strengthens your side, keep to the facts. oh and write down your key points of defence.

dont think because your a motor trader your on the backfoot, that is incorrect advice, you have many years experience, you are skilled at your job, and you know vehicles inside out, the claimant  had purchased a vehicle that had all possible checks carried out pre purchase, was helped immediately a problem was forthcoming, and then the "exaggerated claim" as i mentioned on the other thread  

 

 

[Blenheim Car Sales 111]

Very kind Sir, exactly this information i was seeking, Thank you to all who contributed

[trade vet 702]

1 hour ago, have a word with the wife said:

i won too 

and they appealed

and they lost the appeal.

blenheim, in a few days [unless youve done this already] you will be exchanging papers that you/they will rely on in court, [do not miss the deadline] these papers will give you a good insight, examine it most carefully [hopefully i advised before on the other thread you asked for "proof" of losses] and pick out points that you can rely on in court for your defence, a simple slip by the other side in there signed for statement of facts [ there story] can crash the case, [ i won by pointing out / proving  [amongst other things] the vehicle was driven to destruction, the claimant denied this and i simply asked the judge and the claimant to see paragraph 12 of the witness statement, the claimant denied it but i pointed out there, paragraph 12, you continued your journey] dont forget too, and i hate to say this, if you loose, you ask for the car back in any payout told by the judge, easily forgot! 

if you win, keep away from claimant after the case in court, listen very carefully to the judge, [addressed sir/madam] only answer questions your asked, do not confuse the judge with jibber jabber [kiss keep it simple] unless it strengthens your side, keep to the facts. oh and write down your key points of defence.

dont think because your a motor trader your on the backfoot, that is incorrect advice, you have many years experience, you are skilled at your job, and you know vehicles inside out, the claimant  had purchased a vehicle that had all possible checks carried out pre purchase, was helped immediately a problem was forthcoming, and then the "exaggerated claim" as i mentioned on the other thread  

 

 

Some good advice there.Would it be possible for you to explain the details of your case.I have won several cases but have never been able to successfully defend one brought by a punter.

[Arfur Dealy 823]

11 hours ago, XFS said:

I,ve won in court as a defendant 5 times in the last 30 years, two criminal cases, three civil. Used a lawyer once as the case was to complex for me.

Three of the cases were wearing my motor trader hat, although none were against punters to be fair.

Like 

[Arfur Dealy 823]

1 hour ago, have a word with the wife said:

i won too 

and they appealed

and they lost the appeal.

blenheim, in a few days [unless youve done this already] you will be exchanging papers that you/they will rely on in court, [do not miss the deadline] these papers will give you a good insight, examine it most carefully [hopefully i advised before on the other thread you asked for "proof" of losses] and pick out points that you can rely on in court for your defence, a simple slip by the other side in there signed for statement of facts [ there story] can crash the case, [ i won by pointing out / proving  [amongst other things] the vehicle was driven to destruction, the claimant denied this and i simply asked the judge and the claimant to see paragraph 12 of the witness statement, the claimant denied it but i pointed out there, paragraph 12, you continued your journey] dont forget too, and i hate to say this, if you loose, you ask for the car back in any payout told by the judge, easily forgot! 

if you win, keep away from claimant after the case in court, listen very carefully to the judge, [addressed sir/madam] only answer questions your asked, do not confuse the judge with jibber jabber [kiss keep it simple] unless it strengthens your side, keep to the facts. oh and write down your key points of defence.

dont think because your a motor trader your on the backfoot, that is incorrect advice, you have many years experience, you are skilled at your job, and you know vehicles inside out, the claimant  had purchased a vehicle that had all possible checks carried out pre purchase, was helped immediately a problem was forthcoming, and then the "exaggerated claim" as i mentioned on the other thread  

 

 

I won, and the judge refused the claimant the appeal option....it still makes me smile..