Funny Farm 7 Posted March 30, 2019 So I've just been to court as the "Claimant" rather than the defendant against a customer. On Sept 1st 2018 we sold a lovely Audi A1 to a young lady, unfortunately due to an admin error by one of our staff we were £1000 short of the agreed price. 5 minutes after sale we contacted the young lady requesting the balance paid in full which she would not entertain as she paid what was on the invoice. Anyway we had no choice but to take the matter to a Small Claims Court. We had our hearing and things went well, we didn't say a word and the Judge stated he was satisfied the case was proven.. "Excellent!!" I thought... Here's where it becomes farcical... The girls started to cry.. The Judge then said to her "have you had any faults with the car since sale.?" .. Yes she said the Turbo has just gone.The car is in the garage!.! I stated "Judge.. No counterclaim was filed by the defendant nor has one being paid for!" .. The Judge stated it was quite within his power to look at the defendants costs of owning the vehicle. "I stated that we are now 7 months since sale".. "I stated that we haven't had the chance to inspect the car or put things right" - The Judge advised the young lady that the fault must have happened in the first 6 months, the girls then said it happened 4 weeks ago. The Judge then said I'm adjourning the case for a counterclaim to be filed. I couldn't believe it...Again the dealer is the Monster!! He's the Ironic thing.. Outside of court I asked the young lady which garage the car was in so I can inspect it immediately, she did not know the name nor have the number. Then I saw the car in the court car park, she quickly drove off in the car that was meant to be in the garage! I couldn't take a photo as my phone was switched off after the hearing. I went back to speak to the Judge but he wouldn't entertain me... Left the matter with Lawgistics. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
David Horgan 564 Posted March 30, 2019 (edited) That's fraud , hope you can prove it too . talk about a set up Another lesson though is to CHECK invoices every time Edited March 30, 2019 by David Horgan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justina3 518 Posted March 30, 2019 David is correct that is fraud i would report it to the police to get a crime number if nothing else to add to your claim, maybe drive around to her house in a mates car video the car driving as normal. I would have said i am not entertaining any claims on the car as it is yet to be paid for in full, and all property remains mine until such time it is paid for in full. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blenheim Car Sales 111 Posted March 30, 2019 I wish you a happy ending, I hope the legal process is able to deal with her as it seems you have been well and truly done over Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsr 2 Posted March 30, 2019 This may seem excessive at first but it needs to be done; Hire a privet detective who can put the customer under surveillance get pictures and videos of her driving about in the car. Get them to also write a witness statement/or attend court. She will be easy to track down you have her details on the invoice and also court papers. I would avoid going to the police for now as that will tip her off that your on to her; Get the meeting notes from your court case where she claims the cars been in the garage. Let her make a false/fraud counter claim - then you come in with your evidence showing she's been driving about in the car Hopefully she's gets a quote/report form a garage claiming car underivable - and you have evidence her wizzying along at 70 odd on a motorway. Also try looking on her social media feeds like facebook/twitter/instagram she may have posted something thats mentions her car - all these social media types love to show off about what they've been upto or what new thing they have. As they say "given em enough rope to hang themselves" 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trade vet 702 Posted March 30, 2019 First of all,how could you prove to the judge that your customer did not pay the full amount.We had a case where the customer paid £2000 deposit in cash from an envelope after signing the finance doc.The sales guy put the cash back in the envelope then turned his back to get the keys etc.Our video only showed the customer arriving and leaving holding the envelope.We were negligent according to our lawyer....I did make the sales guy pay it back over time. Otherwise nothing surprises me with judges when car dealers are involved. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Funny Farm 7 Posted March 30, 2019 Cheers for the replies fellows, the fact that she emailed me this morning saying the car has been repaired, also means she did not follow the CRA 2015 guidance which allows me the opportunity to inspect and repair the vehicle. She stated her uncle carried out the work this morning at his house (not garage). Trade Vet.. She fell on her own sword be admitting £500 part liability, she stated it was a goodwill gesture. We also had the advert which showed the full price and the emails sent shortly after sale. I'm not so cruel to charge my salesman on a genuine mistake, plus he worked harder for the next 6 months :-) The Judge was clearly the consumers friend. Because this is a small claims court, there is no oath. It all depends on what the Judge believes to be the truth. Unfortunately the older Judges that have never being promoted tend to abuse their power against traders (especially car traders). But in this case the abuse of power is quite clear and the grounds have to be exceptional to advise a counterclaim in this manner, I'm not sure the grounds to adjourn are exceptional. I will have a solicitor in with me on the next hearing, it is less likely to turn into a circus.... I will keep you updated!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
have a word with the wife 299 Posted March 30, 2019 8 hours ago, Funny Farm said: 8 hours ago, Funny Farm said: The girls started to cry.. they will need proof of repair, you will be of course claiming, [and letting the defendant know if they go ahead] costs, i don't think they will claim , i hope, keep us to date please, and thanks for posting this . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrC 142 Posted March 30, 2019 Well I know what to do if I ever find myself in court.. Just start to cry! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TangoVictor32 90 Posted March 30, 2019 If the turbo has gone it can be repaired and she will be driving it. So even if you film her today or tomorrow its too late. You're only chance is if you can get cctv from when she drove out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arfur Dealy 823 Posted March 31, 2019 She didn’t give you the opportunity to repair and at no point had she every stated there was a fault. She hasn’t proven the fault was not subject to the CRA exclusions. Turbos wear out as we all know. Btw, I resently won a case for which I didn’t submit any costs in the paperwork claim, the judge however, asked and awarded me costs in the court. Best of luck, keep us posted. AD Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DPF 18 Posted March 31, 2019 11 hours ago, TangoVictor32 said: If the turbo has gone it can be repaired and she will be driving it. So even if you film her today or tomorrow its too late. You're only chance is if you can get cctv from when she drove out. Get cctv to prove Car not in garage as she claims Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XFS 70 Posted March 31, 2019 Looks to me like the judge mishandled the case. You could appeal and also make a complaint against the judge to the JCIO - Judicial Complaints Investigation Office. As for the alleged fault with the car. There are all sorts of anomalies there, not least that there would not appear to be any proof that the fault ever existed. Judges have a duty to be fair and procedurally correct and are not immune from being held to account for misconduct. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Funny Farm 7 Posted March 31, 2019 Thanks again for your responses. We have to go back to here the counterclaim (if the defendant submits one). If we have the same Judge it would be difficult for him to dismiss a counterclaim as he actually encouraged them to submit one! However as stated, we have not being given the opportunity to inspect the vehicle and make good any repairs. We will be represented by Lawgistics at the next hearing. If we do win then the Defendant has wasted another £200ish on a wasted counterclaim. The Judge has made this simple case very complicated and potentially costly... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TangoVictor32 90 Posted March 31, 2019 6 minutes ago, Funny Farm said: Thanks again for your responses. We have to go back to here the counterclaim (if the defendant submits one). If we have the same Judge it would be difficult for him to dismiss a counterclaim as he actually encouraged them to submit one! However as stated, we have not being given the opportunity to inspect the vehicle and make good any repairs. We will be represented by Lawgistics at the next hearing. If we do win then the Defendant has wasted another £200ish on a wasted counterclaim. The Judge has made this simple case very complicated and potentially costly... It hadnt been if it wasn't a female. Had she been a he you would have won. Its all this bs equalities nonsense. Constant crap about equal pay yet women earn the same as men in the same jobs. If they want to talk about equality why do men get treated like crap in divorce proceedings and child custody? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mistermuttley 19 Posted April 1, 2019 On 30/03/2019 at 11:00 AM, TangoVictor32 said: It hadnt been if it wasn't a female. Had she been a he you would have won. Its all this bs equalities nonsense. Constant crap about equal pay yet women earn the same as men in the same jobs. If they want to talk about equality why do men get treated like crap in divorce proceedings and child custody? Like Bham council who have to pay office staff the same wages as bin men as they are doing 'comparable' jobs, even though at the time they got took on they were aware of the pay and accepted it. If thats the case maybe the office girls would like to swap jobs?! Everywhere is the same now, companies like to level pay across all roles so they aren't seen to discriminate. I used to work as an aircraft tech in the Raf many moons ago and we had different higher pay grades to admin/dental/police staff as the training was longer and the job more difficult. Now every role pays EXACTLY the same and my role has hardly changed in pay whereas most others has gone up. How on earth is that fair.If anyone is thinking of joining up now just pick the easy job as there is no incentive to choose a technical role. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Area 51 33 Posted April 1, 2019 Very interesting read this, wish you well at the hearing should the day come around.. I have a feeling this tool (claimant) will get some advise and they will realise how exposed they; if they dont.. Get lawgistics to give you your monies worth by ripping the claimant and judge a new ar*ehole.. Assuming it is the same clown that encouraged the claim... On the topic of equality, we have a female prime minster... just saying like I have read somewhere there are something like 10000 staff working within the EU in BRU who earn more than the UK prime minister.. quite a few on non receipted expenses too... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arfur Dealy 823 Posted April 1, 2019 On 3/30/2019 at 10:51 AM, Funny Farm said: The Judge has made this simple case very complicated and potentially costly... I'm not sure if this is strictly true.... He has a duty to be fair to both parties, he found out during your case that there are mitigating circumstances to the outcome, it's up to her to now prove this. What opinion have Lawgistics given you ? Please explain... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
David Horgan 564 Posted April 1, 2019 4 minutes ago, Area 51 said: have read somewhere there are something like 10000 staff working within the EU in BRU who earn more than the UK prime minister.. quite a few on non receipted expenses too... Why we need to leave the corrupt party , greedy beggars 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Area 51 33 Posted April 1, 2019 I forgot to mention the staff only, tax free shopping centre under the EU parliament.. I'm sure the list goes on... Greedy political beggars.. well I never... Love Europe and the people .. just the self appointed ruling junta that needs overthrowing.. best get back on thread - radio has driven me nuts this afternoon with all the doom.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
David Horgan 564 Posted April 1, 2019 4 minutes ago, Area 51 said: I forgot to mention the staff only, tax free shopping centre under the EU parliament.. I'm sure the list goes on... Greedy political beggars.. well I never... Love Europe and the people .. just the self appointed ruling junta that needs overthrowing.. best get back on thread - radio has driven me nuts this afternoon with all the doom.. That's how i feel , love the people abroad , just wish they still had their own identity and currency and some one squashed the EU building . As you say back on thread sorry OP Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Funny Farm 7 Posted April 2, 2019 This was Lawgistics response... The judge was typical – a consumer’s friend. He could see that you had had help in writing the defence and witness statement and thought he would assist a single female – inappropriately I would say. He was wrong to chastise you for asking him to dismiss the “counterclaim” as she was trying to sneak that in as a defence. Had it not been raised in your Defence and Witness Statement the court might not have made her pay any fee at all. Furthermore, we have had cases where we have not attended to (seemingly) irrelevant issues, the judge has said that “because you didn’t address them, your considered to have admitted them”. Sometimes you cannot win! Also, the Judge ought to have separated the successful element of your claim from the yet to be determined “counterclaim”, which should be an unrelated hearing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Area 51 33 Posted April 2, 2019 17 minutes ago, Funny Farm said: This was Lawgistics response... The judge was typical – a consumer’s friend. He could see that you had had help in writing the defence and witness statement and thought he would assist a single female – inappropriately I would say. He was wrong to chastise you for asking him to dismiss the “counterclaim” as she was trying to sneak that in as a defence. Had it not been raised in your Defence and Witness Statement the court might not have made her pay any fee at all. Furthermore, we have had cases where we have not attended to (seemingly) irrelevant issues, the judge has said that “because you didn’t address them, your considered to have admitted them”. Sometimes you cannot win! Also, the Judge ought to have separated the successful element of your claim from the yet to be determined “counterclaim”, which should be an unrelated hearing. Its likes politics isnt it? "welcome to their world" .. make the rules up as they go along and to suit... All rather unbelievable.... I'd guess the only recourse is you may be out of pocket seeking a bloody resolution.. the system is broken, either way the system and lawyers wins. Bloody shambles ... good luck with it all the same. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dave2302 387 Posted April 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Area 51 said: Bloody shambles ... I'll second that, whole of UK is one huge shambles !! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andymc1973 199 Posted April 2, 2019 tin of paint over the car Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
