The Rules

[A & S 20]

Yes, you are not allowed. Done a few handovers from a boot of a car using the parcel shelf as a desk and some from the valeting bay / workshop.  When I spoke to LawData you are not allowed to have customers in your showroom, office or on your forecourt. We have a private road at our entrance, we hand the cars and vans from there. 

18 minutes ago, Boycie said:

Are you saying that even if you sell a 'click and collect car' you don't allow the punters inside to do the paperwork?

Yes. 

27 minutes ago, Boycie said:

Are you saying that even if you sell a 'click and collect car' you don't allow the punters inside to do the paperwork?

Yes. 

[A & S 20]

Had a lady call today wanting to view a vw golf, told her its click and collect only, no viewings, no visits to the site,  no test drives. She says she was at a main dealer yesteeday, they opened the car for us and started it so we could hear the engine running. I told her we can't let her come down and do that, its click and collect or nothing. Pushing so much to come down. She says I'm going to come down as I go for my daily exercise, would you believe she turned tried to get my attention, just ignored/blanked her. Oh her daily exercise was travelling 6 miles in her car. 

I mean how do you tell me people politely. 

[Martin F 15]

21 hours ago, A & S said:

He went to wbac who gave him more than we offered so he sold his px to them. He said they let him in the office to do paperwork etc. I mean surely he should not of been invited in the office, there business is no different to car sales. The big boys a breaking the law and getting away with it. Makes my p!ss boil. 

I wonder if 1x £10k fine is just built into their budgeting, i.e. they are accepting the risk if that’s the worst that can happen. 

[A & S 20]

A 10k fine for them is nothing they would of made 10s and 10s of10ks by the time they get caught and fined, I believe its a warning first then if you carry on they fine .

Edited January 31, 2021 by A & S

[Frank Cannon 812]

I hear some handovers are conducted in the service area of some main agents....it's bit of a grey area. 

Although some do have white walls as well. 

[poor-trader 15]

Story in local paper today that some people were fined for travelling from Birmingham to Essex to collect a new car. Non-essential travel fixed penalty.

[CRW 73]

Fairly sure I had a Trading Standards bod trying to trip me up the other evening. Scruffy looking guy wanders onto my forecourt at 4.30, Im watching him on the cameras and he spends literally seconds vacantly looking at a few cars and approaches my office door. "Can I look in that silver one please?". Told him that's not allowed and he just wanders off. You know when you just get a gut feeling!

[Frank Cannon 812]

1 hour ago, CRW said:

Fairly sure I had a Trading Standards bod trying to trip me up the other evening. Scruffy looking guy wanders onto my forecourt at 4.30, Im watching him on the cameras and he spends literally seconds vacantly looking at a few cars and approaches my office door. "Can I look in that silver one please?". Told him that's not allowed and he just wanders off. You know when you just get a gut feeling!

Myself and others have had similar experiences, they most definitely are doing the rounds. Better safe than sorry

[BHM 994]

You’d think they have f.a. else to do. I wonder why they don’t catch up with a few rogue traders on Facebook who repeatedly sell cars masquerading as private sellers.

It wouldn’t be hard, would it? Surely just a phone call to arrange a meet with any cap-wearing likely lad who can’t string together a cohesive sentence & who has a history of regularly selling a few cars. Surely this can’t be beyond the wit of a local government employee? 

I can suggest a few search words/phrases that may help identify such characters; gud, carnt, bran new tyers, m8, new breaks, and my favourite - cupple cwid (yes, really!)

Edited February 4, 2021 by BHM

[Frank Cannon 812]

1 hour ago, BHM said:

You’d think they have f.a. else to do. I wonder why they don’t catch up with a few rogue traders on Facebook who repeatedly sell cars masquerading as private sellers.

It wouldn’t be hard, would it? Surely just a phone call to arrange a meet with any cap-wearing likely lad who can’t string together a cohesive sentence & who has a history of regularly selling a few cars. Surely this can’t be beyond the wit of a local government employee? 

I can suggest a few search words/phrases that may help identify such characters; gud, carnt, bran new tyers, m8, new breaks, and my favourite - cupple cwid (yes, really!)

.....they won't though will they, soft targets only, they really do, its why the serials offenders still are, well, serial offenders. 

I may of mentioned before, when we were on the south coast, there was notorious (locally) private 'trader'......... Everything worse in a cliché pikey rolled into one very nasty package indeed....ran loads of Gumtree, Facebook and Ebay accounts mostly as private, very occasionally as trade.

Been doing it for years, still probably is, his idea of customer comebacks was just simple physical threats, bricks thru windows or good honest house burnings, I shit you not. His return rate was incredibly low... 

....in all the years I knew him he actually rarely had proper grief with the 'ooforytees'....possibly due to putting one TS bod in a headlock and launching him out into the road....a 24 carat nasty piece of work, no idle threats there. Even the plod were reluctant to deal with him.

Don't get me wrong, this guy may of sounded like a simpleton but, he was as sharp as the lines on a MK1 Golf, knew his way around the judicial system, especially Travellers rights/ racial rights etc, great on IT, bloody good on the tools too. Apparently pulled the popsies like Pacific Class steam Locomotive too. 

.....that said a very helpful guy if you were stuck at auction broken down, first one lying under a car in a puddle.....maybe just a hatred of whinging punters so, not totally without a certain flair

Edited February 4, 2021 by Frank Cannon

[trade vet 704]

1 hour ago, Frank Cannon said:

.....they won't though will they, soft targets only, they really do, its why the serials offenders still are, well, serial offenders. 

I may of mentioned before, when we were on the south coast, there was notorious (locally) private 'trader'......... Everything worse in a cliché pikey rolled into one very nasty package indeed....ran loads of Gumtree, Facebook and Ebay accounts mostly as private, very occasionally as trade.

Been doing it for years, still probably is, his idea of customer comebacks was just simple physical threats, bricks thru windows or good honest house burnings, I shit you not. His return rate was incredibly low... 

....in all the years I knew him he actually rarely had proper grief with the 'ooforytees'....possibly due to putting one TS bod in a headlock and launching him out into the road....a 24 carat nasty piece of work, no idle threats there. Even the plod were reluctant to deal with him.

Don't get me wrong, this guy may of sounded like a simpleton but, he was as sharp as the lines on a MK1 Golf, knew his way around the judicial system, especially Travellers rights/ racial rights etc, great on IT, bloody good on the tools too. Apparently pulled the popsies like Pacific Class steam Locomotive too. 

.....that said a very helpful guy if you were stuck at auction broken down, first one lying under a car in a puddle.....maybe just a hatred of whinging punters so, not totally without a certain flair

You are right about ‘ soft targets ‘ only.Once tried to start a topic about ‘ Trade characters we have met ‘ and got no response.

[metcars 397]

7 hours ago, BHM said:

You’d think they have f.a. else to do. I wonder why they don’t catch up with a few rogue traders on Facebook who repeatedly sell cars masquerading as private sellers.

It wouldn’t be hard, would it? Surely just a phone call to arrange a meet with any cap-wearing likely lad who can’t string together a cohesive sentence & who has a history of regularly selling a few cars. Surely this can’t be beyond the wit of a local government employee? 

I can suggest a few search words/phrases that may help identify such characters; gud, carnt, bran new tyers, m8, new breaks, and my favourite - cupple cwid (yes, really!)

This, absolutely! 

And the cars sitting on the back of a recovery truck because he’s just mugged someone off and bought it for £100? Also, they like to use their girlfriends accounts. What’s that all about? But as BHM said, why can’t TS catch those guys?

[David Horgan 564]

Not Car related but still makes me laugh even now

A good few years ago I ran a Mushroom farm , Now mushrooms farms are just about the cleanest places ever , ANY dirt about and they die , or don't grow , so the insensitive is to keep it all very very clean , Foot baths , clean clothes , hand washing , different staff for different areas , its has to be run very clinical if you want it to work . 

So i came out of a spawn running house , to find this twat coming out of whats called a Casing house a very highly sensitive time of the crop  , so i go who the bloody hell are you then 

This pompous twat says I'm from the council health and hygiene dept , Stood there covered in a dirty white coat . 

I said can you read , Yes he goes why , 

You have passed two barriers , four no entry signs stepped over a red Chain  and entered a door that says DO NOT ENTER . He told me rules didn't apply and he can go where he likes HAHA 

He left the area horizontal , dropping papers , pens and one shoe . I had the back of his belt on his trousers and his hair , Ran him out and he entered his car a red Rover 214 haha through the passenger window , to claps from 30 of the pickers that were on tea break . One said how did you know the window was open Boss , I didn't 

Just reminded me when i read that bit on the rough guy who never had a visit . We never had a visit after either . 

Saw him in Newark town centre a few months after , he crossed the road and kept his down , 

Sometimes it just works 

[hondansxr 1]

utter b**llocks ... i have never been to a DIY store soooo much im my life just a mask     bought  lights .. screws... shower equip .. roof felt for my shed  x2..  screws  hidges for new gate ...tarmac repair ... these are all seperate times ......not once been asked if it was necc ... so why they open and not car dealerships .....

[It's me 615]

17 minutes ago, hondansxr said:

utter b**llocks ... i have never been to a DIY store soooo much im my life just a mask     bought  lights .. screws... shower equip .. roof felt for my shed  x2..  screws  hidges for new gate ...tarmac repair ... these are all seperate times ......not once been asked if it was necc ... so why they open and not car dealerships .....

You are having a laugh yes?

Last week I had to stand next to the road and watch as someone I have known for over 25 years go off in the hearse to be buried she was 65 and no underlying health problems

Time before was just before Christmas another lady 60 this time

Then there is the barmaid in the pub in my village she died in early january

You might not give z's for s but a lot of us do

This virus kills

[DCS01 27]

1 minute ago, It's me said:

You are having a laugh yes?

Last week I had to stand next to the road and watch as someone I have known for over 25 years go off in the hearse to be buried she was 65 and no underlying health problems

Time before was just before Christmas another lady 60 this time

Then there is the barmaid in the pub in my village she died in early january

You might not give z's for s but a lot of us do

This virus kills

100%. I know more people that have got it this time around. And people that it has f*@cked them up with their health.

Shopping centres/DIY centres etc at least there is some social distancing.  You get people going into a car dealership and getting into the confined space of a car you are asking for trouble. 
Salesman are salesman for a reason, and if one could bend the rules for a sale and take that chance then they would. 

[Dave2302 387]

16 hours ago, hondansxr said:

utter b**llocks ... i have never been to a DIY store soooo much im my life just a mask     bought  lights .. screws... shower equip .. roof felt for my shed  x2..  screws  hidges for new gate ...tarmac repair ... these are all seperate times ......not once been asked if it was necc ... so why they open and not car dealerships .....

Twunt !!

Why don't you go crawl back under the pile of dog shit you came out from you totally disrespectful wanker, you have no place at all on a Motor Traders Forum .......................

Waste of oxygen

Edited February 6, 2021 by Dave2302

[LawJaw 50]

On 1/26/2021 at 7:14 PM, Harry George said:

Even more confused after just watching last weeks AT webinar, 

I’m sure Lawgistics had previously said test drives were a no and that C&C had to be paid for in full prior to customer seeing car.

The latest is that they are saying test drives ok if it’s a ‘pre-order’, with a deposit being paid in advance.  We have been saying no to test drives on their previous advice.

Now too with C&C they have changed interpretation and saying a ‘pre order’ and deposit paid you can let customer view car in designated area not in showroom and pay balance once viewed.

I know we have lost deals by sticking to what was first said and am a bit shocked at the latest info.

Where we find out for sure I don’t know, but I’m pretty sure the general consensus on Cardealer Magazine  was no test drives and paid for in full?

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 1/28/2021 at 7:52 AM, umesh said:

No Appointments, No Viewings, No Road test, as it says " click and collect - or - click and deliver", the whole transaction must have taken place remotely , so paid for in full and they simply collect!Customers not allowed in the premises.  That's the rules, but there are many trying to 'work' their way round it. 

 

 

On 1/28/2021 at 8:54 AM, Harry George said:

Umesh, exactly what we thought and have been practicing.

I only posted after seeing last weeks AT webinar.

The same person from Lawgistics was now saying,  test drives  if a deposit paid prior to coming and if a deposit had been paid a customer could then come and view (in designated area outside) before completing payment.

This was to do with the interpretation of ‘pre order’ on the govt website.

We all want to do the right thing but when a trade legal body puts out two very different messages it has got me at least very confused.

 

 

On the 4^th November, the morning after the new regulations came out, Lawgistics agreed to be interviewed on a special Car Dealer Live show to help dealers understand the new rules. The show was called ‘Click and Collect – The Detail’ and if you care to watch it you will note our representative is clutching the regulations freshly printed out that morning to refer to if asked a question that required more clarity.

It is true the host introduces the show stating test drives were a no, but during the discussion, the lawyer from C&G stated they had clients pushing to do test drives and our representative pointed out they were not prohibited. Our representative also pointed out the regulations said ‘pre-order’ and suggested that would give room for an argument. However, it was concluded dealers needed to apply common sense and act sensibly.

The show received over 3,500 views and provided some valuable advice for dealers to act safely and within the law – an insightful piece which was appreciated by many – special thanks to Car Dealer Mag and the lawyers who gave up their time to answer your questions.

Obviously, this was just general advice and anyone requiring more tailored advice would be best consulting with their own lawyers. We have certainly advised a lot of dealers since then on many of the points discussed in the show and have been impressed with how they have adapted their online sales, operating much safer than we first imagined possible and achieving some impressive numbers.

What we spoke about on the AT webinar did not contradict what we said on the first show, it was just embellished by what we have seen and learnt since the first show.

I believe the IMDA is the only association who say you must NOT do test drives, the others are sitting on the fence. Lawgistics has always said test drives are not prohibited.

However, this does not mean consumers can just rock up and jump in a car at will!

Dealers forecourts and showrooms must remain closed for business but, the law does allow for a customer to call up, put down a deposit and test drive a particular vehicle. The deal will still be a Click & Collect sale with the requisite 14 days return period, but it will give the customer more confidence to put down a deposit and reduce the chances of them returning the vehicle within the return period (which is, after all, no more than an extended test drive). Rationally, this could also reduce the risk of transmission in comparison to the 14 days option, as you know there will only have been the one driver in the vehicle, and not their whole family.

It is, of course, up to dealers where they sit morally (PR wise) on this issue but we are pleased to report that we have now seen our legal view confirmed by the Office of Product Safety & Standards who provide advice to your local councils and Trading Standards based on responses from central government. Further, despite claims from a dealer group, we have not heard of a single dealer being fined for offering test drives. Conversely, we have dealt with cases where dealers have been questioned by the police and Trading Standards but on producing evidence of a deposit being taken remotely prior to any test drive, they have been allowed to carry on without issue.

Edited February 26, 2021 by LawJaw

[Frank Cannon 812]

As of 2pm yesterday, Norfolk Trading Standards advice by telecom, was no test drives, Click and Collect only, full payment upfront. 

A large dealer group I deal with had same advice earlier in the day. 

So is this 'deposit up front & test drive' by region, mis-information by some trading standards, or mis-information by Lawgistics? Someone is wrong. 

I guess it boils down to would Lawgistics stand on it in court? 

While others may welcome this 'news' I'm not one of them.

To the best of my knowledge, I've not lost any sales by no test drive and, from my perspective this latest advice means, to me, test drive and, still have14 days to reject so, why take a chance with both Trading Standards and, both ours and our customers health, can't see the benefit?

I think a £100 deposit and test drive simply encourages messers, needless travel and risk to car industry employees in what is an precedented public health lockdown, your mileage may vary. 

Question: After a test drive whereby the customer decides not decide to purchase, what is advice as to treatment of car post test drive? Full valet with sanitising materials by a valater in full PPE, then allow to stand for 3 days. Simply allow to stand for 3 days with windows open? Whatever the treatment that car is off sale until treated. 

I'm very probably in a small minority but, click and collect has been fantastic for me, easy deals. The thought of going back to walk-ins and, the usual day dreamers, nearly men and tyre kickers fills me with dread. Only I'm dealing with (within reason) genuine, focused and end of buying journey proper buyers. 

Edited February 27, 2021 by Frank Cannon

[BHM 994]

1 hour ago, Frank Cannon said:

Only I'm dealing with (within reason) genuine, focused and end of buying journey proper buyers.

It’s a pleasure isn’t it to politely but firmly turn down the “Can I come for a look sometime over the weekend whilst I’m out looking at a few others?” daydreamers. “COME TO BUY!!!” is the warcry! You can almost hear the arseholes letting go of those who aren’t serious as they start stuttering & stammering with their excuses to phone back later.

Just wait until we are back to normal....... there’ll be thousands upon thousands of peeps just starting their car buying journey looking forward to entertaining the whole of the family test driving car after car. The sad part is is that, understandably, 90% of the industry will entertain these goons as they go around expecting the red carpet treatment.

Edited February 27, 2021 by BHM

[trade vet 704]

I think we should be grateful to Law Jaw for providing us with clear and definitive information rubber stamped by the Office of Product Safety and Standards with regard to Click and Collect.This is a big help for those running pitches.Yesterday I was at my old pitch where people are constantly turning up unannounced wanting to view stock and the time taken explaining the rules to them is very frustrating.Some clear signage referring to The Office of Product Safety and the £100 deposit rule should deter the time wasters and also any random Trading Standards Officers.

[LawJaw 50]

16 hours ago, Frank Cannon said:

As of 2pm yesterday, Norfolk Trading Standards advice by telecom, was no test drives, Click and Collect only, full payment upfront. 

A large dealer group I deal with had same advice earlier in the day. 

So is this 'deposit up front & test drive' by region, mis-information by some trading standards, or mis-information by Lawgistics? Someone is wrong. 

I guess it boils down to would Lawgistics stand on it in court? 

While others may welcome this 'news' I'm not one of them.

To the best of my knowledge, I've not lost any sales by no test drive and, from my perspective this latest advice means, to me, test drive and, still have14 days to reject so, why take a chance with both Trading Standards and, both ours and our customers health, can't see the benefit?

I think a £100 deposit and test drive simply encourages messers, needless travel and risk to car industry employees in what is an precedented public health lockdown, your mileage may vary. 

Question: After a test drive whereby the customer decides not decide to purchase, what is advice as to treatment of car post test drive? Full valet with sanitising materials by a valater in full PPE, then allow to stand for 3 days. Simply allow to stand for 3 days with windows open? Whatever the treatment that car is off sale until treated. 

I'm very probably in a small minority but, click and collect has been fantastic for me, easy deals. The thought of going back to walk-ins and, the usual day dreamers, nearly men and tyre kickers fills me with dread. Only I'm dealing with (within reason) genuine, focused and end of buying journey proper buyers. 

We are confident with our advice and if any of our members are questioned or fined for offering a test drive we would naturally defend them.

We would also be very happy to hear from anyone else who has been fined in this area , and we would certainly review the case for free.

It would help if the government educated buyers about the process in which dealers can sell cars during this lockdown. Sadly, it is not an easy task to get everyone to conform to the rules of lockdown and therefore dealers are continuously tested by consumer demands.

At present dealers are asking buyers to pay for a vehicle in full which they have not seen but reassuring them they have 14 days to test drive the vehicle. They can take it round their mates house, let their father-in-law take for a spin and take the family to the local park or supermarket , and if the vehicle isn’t right they can bring back for a full refund.

If a dealer finds themselves with a potential buyer who is uncomfortable paying in full for a vehicle which they have not physically viewed or tested, taking a deposit and offering a ‘post-sale’ test drive is a great option to secure the deal. It can also reduce the chance of the vehicle being rejected in the first 14 days.

As handovers can now be carried out contactless and vehicles sanitised quickly, this process does not have to create anymore risk than the traditional click and collect process, and in some respects it could be safer.

We agree it should not be abused, making it such an attractive offer that consumers are just turning up for a drive round the block to help break up the boredom of lockdown.

However, it is in the interest of a dealer to qualify any prospective buyer, especially as there is a cost in sanitising the car after each test drive.

All we’re suggesting is a buyer orders the vehicle by placing a deposit. They are then given a short period of time to decide whether they wish to cancel their order (a ‘post-sale’ test drive) before they pay in full.

The sale is still a distance sale, and the buyer will still have 14 days to cancel their order but it will give them confidence to pay in full after physically sitting in the vehicle.

If the buyer wishes to take the  vehicle they simply transfer the balance and the click and collect process is complete. If they do not want to have the vehicle they can return it and have their deposit refunded. It does not have to be any more complicated than that... common sense prevails.

[BHM 994]

Is it just me but why is a deposited purchase from the premises a distance sale? 
If the buyer has been allowed an unencumbered test drive & inspection prior to sale & only completes the deal after finding the vehicle is to their satisfaction how/why is that a distance sale?

[Frank Cannon 812]

33 minutes ago, BHM said:

Is it just me but why is a deposited purchase from the premises a distance sale? 
If the buyer has been allowed an unencumbered test drive & inspection prior to sale & only completes the deal after finding the vehicle is to their satisfaction how/why is that a distance sale?

It's mad isn't it, I can't get my head around this either?

5 hours ago, LawJaw said:

 

As handovers can now be carried out contactless and vehicles sanitised quickly, this process does not have to create anymore risk than the traditional click and collect process, and in some respects it could be safer.

We agree it should not be abused, making it such an attractive offer that consumers are just turning up for a drive round the block to help break up the boredom of lockdown.

However, it is in the interest of a dealer to qualify any prospective buyer, especially as there is a cost in sanitising the car after each test drive.

All we’re suggesting is a buyer orders the vehicle by placing a deposit. They are then given a short period of time to decide whether they wish to cancel their order (a ‘post-sale’ test drive) before they pay in full.

The sale is still a distance sale, and the buyer will still have 14 days to cancel their order but it will give them confidence to pay in full after physically sitting in the vehicle.

Many thanks for the timely, prompt, concise reply Law Jaw.

I feel you missed one of my queries, possibly the most important?

Gov guidance is that C19 lasts 72 hours on hard surfaces, 3 days....cars are full of them. 

So after a test drive and rejection can we as a responsable employer, ask our employees to enter the vehicle for any post sale remedial work such as cleaning, unless 3 days has passed? 

And/or if an employee refuses to enter the car post test drive for remedial work where do we the employer stand?

Many thanks

Edited February 28, 2021 by Frank Cannon

[BHM 994]

1 hour ago, Frank Cannon said:

Gov guidance is that C19 lasts 72 hours on hard surfaces, 3 days....cars are full of them. 

.......the same 72 hours as on buses, trains & supermarket shelves but they don’t count.

1 hour ago, Frank Cannon said:

It's mad isn't it, I can't get my head around this either?

To be honest I struggle to believe it in a legal sense. A distance sale when it’s at the sellers premises and the buyer has fully inspected & tested goods to their satisfaction before concluding the purchase. 

I simply cannot understand how on Earth such a transaction is a distance sale.

I suspect there’s an awful lot of scaremongering by those with an interest in muddying the waters.