Clocked motor

[15Cars 16]

Afternoon All

I've been caught out. 10 year old well loaded VW which was purchased from auction, 2 owners, last owner for past 8 years . 60k miles showing but miles were not warranted. Spent a good 30 mins checking the car out and checked physical history before bidding - mileages tally nicely in the service book as do the mileages on the MOT history. HPI report all good. Interior firm and fresh with no excessive wear and the car drives great, nice and tight. Stuck it through my workshop for a major service but a fault appeared which needed a main dealer repair. Booked it into the local main dealer, gave them the current mileage and they told me it cannot be right. They saw the car in August 2013 at 98k and September 2013 at 97k, so it's lost 1000 miles in a month; I'm guessing the car has done at least 130k, possibly a lot more. Spoke to the auction and they're not interested.

Naturally I'm not going to retail it and it has been sent to auction. I'm not overly bothered about the loss, I'll chalk it up to experience. My question is, apart from contacting a main dealer prior to purchase to see what records they have, it there anything else I could have done to prevent this?

All comments welcome, good or bad.

Merry Xmas to all

 

15

Edited December 28, 2019 by 15Cars

[Tony F 38]

36 minutes ago, 15Cars said:

My question is, apart from contacting a main dealer prior to purchase to see what records they have, it there anything else I could have done to prevent this?

All comments welcome, good or bad.

So, its worth remembering this. You could have returned the car to auction for a refund. If in future if you buy a car 'not warranted miles', that does not excuse the vendor if the miles turn out to be incorrect. I have returned quite a few cars to bca over the years when the main agent/vendor has tried to pull a fast one, thinking the 'not warranted miles' declaration covers them. It does not cover f4ck all!  I have cut and paste below some wording from an email I have often used, and it has always worked out fine for me. Might help a few others too.

'Dear Bca               ,
Thanks for your response.
I received the email below from J after I emailed you. Hopefully he's sorting it tomorrow.
My interpretation is that all mileage readings are either correct or incorrect.
A vendors declaration of 'warranted' would be based on available evidence to verify the mileage reading, such as VOSA or full service history. The 'incorrect' declaration is used when there is evidence to support the inaccuracy of a mileage reading, again VOSA discrepancy or incorrect service history, or speedometer change.
A 'not warranted' declaration is just as strong a declaration as the other two, and is used used when there is no evidence available to support the mileage reading of a car as being either correct or incorrect.
A vendor cannot hide behind the not warranted declaration and use it as an excuse for not showing due care when selling a car on, when a simple check established that this particular car had an incorrect mileage reading. They are using ignorance as a defence in this particular case, and also also trying to use the not warranted declaration as an excuse for their lack of due diligence. But I am sure that being such a large company they would have certain procedures in place for checking their cars & p/exs, as I have noted that they do also often warrant mileages on some of their cars that have minimal or no service history available.'
 

[trade vet 702]

It’s just the downside to buying not warranted mileage stuff.You will buy plenty when you have guessed right about the mileage.I am unsure why you complained to the auction,just retail out of it as best you can and take a hit. Compliments of the season.

[15Cars 16]

1 minute ago, trade vet said:

It’s just the downside to buying not warranted mileage stuff.You will buy plenty when you have guessed right about the mileage.I am unsure why you complained to the auction,just retail out of it as best you can and take a hit. Compliments of the season.

That's the conclusion I've come to, and you're right, I've had success with other cars I've bought with declared mileage discrepancies and non warranted miles, often just the MOT tester has cocked the mileage entry up. I didn't complain to the auction as such; I get on with them well and wanted to let them know. I'm not losing any sleep over it, every time I f*ck up, I treat it as a learning exercise and it makes me sharper.

I guess my only gripe is with myself, the car has easily done double the miles displayed and I didn't spot it. Some of these VW interiors seem to age so well.

Have a nice crimbo

9 minutes ago, Tony F said:

So, its worth remembering this. You could have returned the car to auction for a refund. If in future if you buy a car 'not warranted miles', that does not excuse the vendor if the miles turn out to be incorrect. I have returned quite a few cars to bca over the years when the main agent/vendor has tried to pull a fast one, thinking the 'not warranted miles' declaration covers them. It does not cover f4ck all!  I have cut and paste below some wording from an email I have often used, and it has always worked out fine for me. Might help a few others too.

'Dear Bca               ,
Thanks for your response.
I received the email below from J after I emailed you. Hopefully he's sorting it tomorrow.
My interpretation is that all mileage readings are either correct or incorrect.
A vendors declaration of 'warranted' would be based on available evidence to verify the mileage reading, such as VOSA or full service history. The 'incorrect' declaration is used when there is evidence to support the inaccuracy of a mileage reading, again VOSA discrepancy or incorrect service history, or speedometer change.
A 'not warranted' declaration is just as strong a declaration as the other two, and is used used when there is no evidence available to support the mileage reading of a car as being either correct or incorrect.
A vendor cannot hide behind the not warranted declaration and use it as an excuse for not showing due care when selling a car on, when a simple check established that this particular car had an incorrect mileage reading. They are using ignorance as a defence in this particular case, and also also trying to use the not warranted declaration as an excuse for their lack of due diligence. But I am sure that being such a large company they would have certain procedures in place for checking their cars & p/exs, as I have noted that they do also often warrant mileages on some of their cars that have minimal or no service history available.'

Hi Tony

Interesting, I didn't think you were able to reject auction cars with non warranted miles.
 

Hi Tony

Interesting, I didn't think you were able to reject auction cars with non warranted miles. Anyway, it was an old/cheap car and I got it well under CC so cannot imagine I'm gonna lose more than a couple hundred quid. If I needed a smoker to get around in I'd happily keep it, it drives lovely, it has clearly been looked after.

One question, if a car at auction has a declared mileage discrepancy, would that change things?

It wasn't BCA btw, it's a small privately owned auction house I sometimes use. I'm a rookie and not skilled/experienced enough to buy stuff from BCA and make decent margins yet 

Seasons greetings

[Tony F 38]

45 minutes ago, 15Cars said:

One question, if a car at auction has a declared mileage discrepancy, would that change things?

Yes it would change things, however if it’s declared as just a Dvsa input error and it then turns out to be more than that, you would then still have a case. 
Anyway merry Xmas to all. ‘Clocking’ out out for a few days now. Back when I’ve sobered up. 

[Casper 272]

As mentioned above I guess it should have been sold mileage incorrect instead of not warranted but then they would argue they didn't know but would still. Try for a refund 

[Arfur Dealy 823]

5 hours ago, 15Cars said:

Afternoon All

I've been caught out. 10 year old well loaded VW which was purchased from auction, 2 owners, last owner for past 8 years . Miles were not warranted. Spent a good 30 mins checking the car out and checked physical history before bidding - mileages tally nicely in the service book as do the mileages on the MOT history. HPI report all good. Interior firm and fresh with no excessive wear and the car drives great, nice and tight. Stuck it through my workshop for a major service but a fault appeared which needed a main dealer repair. Booked it into the local main dealer, gave them the current mileage and they told me it cannot be right. They saw the car in August 2013 at 98k and September 2013 at 97k, so it's lost 1000 miles in a month; I'm guessing the car has done at least 130k, possibly a lot more. Spoke to the auction and they're not interested.

Naturally I'm not going to retail it and it has been sent to auction. I'm not overly bothered about the loss, I'll chalk it up to experience. My question is, apart from contacting a main dealer prior to purchase to see what records they have, it there anything else I could have done to prevent this?

All comments welcome, good or bad.

Merry Xmas to all

 

15

If someone is going to clock a car, they aren't going to just wipe a thousand miles off it, unless I am reading this wrong it doesn't make any sense to me. 

[Nick M.K. 574]

That’s not a clocked car, 

98K miles in August, then the clever owner pays £££ to only shave 1000 miles to make it 97K AND take it into the same main dealer!!!
 

Complete nonsense. 

VW dealer made an admin error booking the car in or a factual error telling you the mileage a month later. 

Don’t lose your sleep over this, don’t waste your time with BCA letter and enjoy your hols. 

 

58 minutes ago, Casper said:

As mentioned above I guess it should have been sold mileage incorrect instead of not warranted but then they would argue they didn't know but would still. Try for a refund 

Why would you say that? Does clocking 1000 miles seem right to you? 

[Casper 272]

41 minutes ago, Nick M.K. said:

That’s not a clocked car, 

98K miles in August, then the clever owner pays £££ to only shave 1000 miles to make it 97K AND take it into the same main dealer!!!
 

Complete nonsense. 

VW dealer made an admin error booking the car in or a factual error telling you the mileage a month later. 

Don’t lose your sleep over this, don’t waste your time with BCA letter and enjoy your hols. 

 

Why would you say that? Does clocking 1000 miles seem right to you? 

No and to be honest I've just not read the post correctly and just have and checked the dates mileage etc and now I stand corrected was doing some last minute Christmas shopping and scanning through on my phone whilst in Tesco picking up some last minute Christmas dinner bits earlier 

you are of course correct in this case when you read it property why would anyone clock a car by 1000 miles it like you say Is more likely what you say been an admin error with someone hitting the wrong digit on keyboard on entry 

Also though thinking and generally speaking when read through Tony's post he is of course correct that not warranted mileage should not cover a vehicle which genuinely did have an incorrect mileage reading on it I've seen blatant ones in the past granted not very often when it has been put mileage not warranted and you check the mot history and its thousands of miles out which really should be stated incorrect rather than not warranted or in which case the mileage can be proved incorrect due to various services etc you would be within your rights to ask for a refund I would think if the mileage was stated not warranted and the turned out to be incorrect 

have a good holiday season nick 

 

Edited December 24, 2019 by Casper

[Mojo121 229]

I’d just sell it. As is. No explanation, don’t even mention it. You’re jumping to massive conclusions saying it’s done 130k. Where’d you get that idea? Agree with Nick - it’s an admin error. 

All that could happen and be proved worst case is it’s a 1000 miles more so worst case you get taken to court and the price difference a customer would have paid for 1000 miles difference isn’t even a worthwhile argument so the case isn’t worth pursuing. Not that that would ever happen.

Otherwise... You can always sell it to me.

Edited December 25, 2019 by Mojo121

[tradegirl 112]

Doesn't sound like the car has been clocked, it sounds like an admin error. You say it could have done far higher mileage, but how much would it have done in a month? 3000? 5000? Even then, if it had done that mileage and someone clocked it, they would have put it just slightly above 98k, so everything lines up, they wouldn't have put it at 1000 miles below the previous mileage.

Retail the car and don't mention it, it's a silly error.

[Casper 272]

4 minutes ago, tradegirl said:

Doesn't sound like the car has been clocked, it sounds like an admin error. You say it could have done far higher mileage, but how much would it have done in a month? 3000? 5000? Even then, if it had done that mileage and someone clocked it, they would have put it just slightly above 98k, so everything lines up, they wouldn't have put it at 1000 miles below the previous mileage.

Retail the car and don't mention it, it's a silly error.

Thinking about it even if you did mention it most people would understand hope you had a lovely christmas tg and that santa was good to you . 

[MrC 142]

Sounds like a Typo at VW. 

[15Cars 16]

On 12/24/2019 at 5:54 PM, Nick M.K. said:

That’s not a clocked car, 

98K miles in August, then the clever owner pays £££ to only shave 1000 miles to make it 97K AND take it into the same main dealer!!!
 

Complete nonsense. 

VW dealer made an admin error booking the car in or a factual error telling you the mileage a month later. 

Don’t lose your sleep over this, don’t waste your time with BCA letter and enjoy your hols. 

 

Why would you say that? Does clocking 1000 miles seem right to you? 

It's strange I'll give you that Nick but the fact remains it was reading 97 and 98k 6 years ago and I bought the thing with 60k displayed.

[Nick M.K. 574]

On 12/24/2019 at 12:41 PM, 15Cars said:

They saw the car in August 2013 at 98k and September 2013 at 97k, so it's lost 1000 miles in a month

You never wrote that it has 60K when you bought it! 

You just stated that the car lost 1000 miles in a month. Nothin else. 

I would've mentioned the current 60K miles in the original post. 

[15Cars 16]

Just now, Nick M.K. said:

You never wrote that it has 60K when you bought it! 

You just stated that the car lost 1000 miles in a month. Nothin else. 

I would've mentioned the current 60K miles in the original post. 

Sorry mate, it doesn't make a lot of sense without the miles displayed on purchase.

[tradegirl 112]

Well that changes everything lol.

[Casper 272]

Agree the 60k was never mentioned in the original post so that's does change things I would go back to my orginal post and say the auction should have sold it mileage incorrect as this can Be proved not mileage not warranted 

although if the mot history etc ties up it could still be that some on from Volkswagen wrote the wrong mileage on a job card but if I read correctly I can't see that happening twice .. 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Casper

[Boycie 30]

The post I have just read says '60k miles showing' in the first paragraph?

[Casper 272]

12 minutes ago, Boycie said:

The post I have just read says '60k miles showing' in the first paragraph?

It was edited later it has been corrected now . 

[Boycie 30]

Aha!

[BHM 994]

Just advertise it with what you think is the correct mileage and when a punter rolls-up tell ‘em it’s had a clock change. If you look in the service book you may find ‘speedo clock change’ recorded  (+ a cambelt change for all them horrible greedy VW cambelt dickheads ).

[MattR 177]

If the service history and dvla mileages stack up as you suggested in the first post, then surely that is the more likely mileage? entirely possible there has been an input error at VW. 

[Casper 272]

2 hours ago, MattR said:

If the service history and dvla mileages stack up as you suggested in the first post, then surely that is the more likely mileage? entirely possible there has been an input error at VW. 

But he says the mileage was recorded higher at vw twice aug 2013 @98k and sep 2013 @97k although possible its unlikely they have done it twice 

[J.T 39]

On 12/24/2019 at 12:41 PM, 15Cars said:

Afternoon All

I've been caught out. 10 year old well loaded VW which was purchased from auction, 2 owners, last owner for past 8 years . 60k miles showing but miles were not warranted. Spent a good 30 mins checking the car out and checked physical history before bidding - mileages tally nicely in the service book as do the mileages on the MOT history. HPI report all good. Interior firm and fresh with no excessive wear and the car drives great, nice and tight. Stuck it through my workshop for a major service but a fault appeared which needed a main dealer repair. Booked it into the local main dealer, gave them the current mileage and they told me it cannot be right. They saw the car in August 2013 at 98k and September 2013 at 97k, so it's lost 1000 miles in a month; I'm guessing the car has done at least 130k, possibly a lot more. Spoke to the auction and they're not interested.

Naturally I'm not going to retail it and it has been sent to auction. I'm not overly bothered about the loss, I'll chalk it up to experience. My question is, apart from contacting a main dealer prior to purchase to see what records they have, it there anything else I could have done to prevent this?

All comments welcome, good or bad.

Merry Xmas to all

 

15

Hi 15,

I believe that whoever has entered that car in to the auction has committed an offence by offering for sale a clocked car, without carrying out their due diligence and checking that the mileage is correct. As you did .

The problem you have now is if you stick it back in the block you'll have to declare it and blow your bollocks off, if you don't declare it you'll be committing an offence.

I would get something in writing regarding the mileage from the VW dealer and take it to the auction, remember your argument is with the vendor and not the auction house. Ask them to pass on your information and see if they will change their mind and refund you.

If they still won't play ball then Trading Standards are extremely helpful, I had a similar situation with a clocked car and the auction/vendor wouldn't play ball. Two days after my call to TS, I was given a full refund from the main agent including my auction costs. Trading Standards are there to help us too.