Illogical price drops

[twerp 69]

I'd argue that they were always fetching more than they are worth, but all Land Rover models have suffered huge drops this year despite demand being constant.

Especially Disco 4 - last year 2010/2011 models retailed for £17-19k and booked at mid teens.

Look at them now !

 

Is it just me ?

[Nick M.K. 574]

Not just you. Diesel. 

[twerp 69]

Yep, but they still sell at the same rate.

More of a case of CAP dictating the market I suspect

[Nick M.K. 574]

1 hour ago, twerp said:

More of a case of CAP dictating the market

CAP doesn't dictate. CAP follows as it takes sold information from major auctions to set values for the following months. Autotrader on the other hand...

[twerp 69]

37 minutes ago, Nick M.K. said:

 CAP follows as it takes sold information from major auctions to set values for the following months..

I know this, but I don't believe it !

[Stalker 180]

4 hours ago, twerp said:

Yep, but they still sell at the same rate.

More of a case of CAP dictating the market I suspect

Bca/cap  I would have said. 
 

Low book prices help WBAC to buy low sell high at auction.
 

BCA are caps biggest contributor of values/prices

[Nick M.K. 574]

Come again??? 

They deliberately lower the TRADE value to buy low? Private sellers don’t use Cap. How does this low valuation help BCA to sell HIGH to you and me??

[Rory RSC 596]

Huge drops, Range Rover Sports 14-16 average miles models have probably dropped 12/15k in that time. 

1 hour ago, Nick M.K. said:

Come again??? 

They deliberately lower the TRADE value to buy low? Private sellers don’t use Cap. How does this low valuation help BCA to sell HIGH to you and me??

I know how does cap collating actual hammer prices people pay for actual cars work this out?

[awc1000 93]

Auction results are only part of the picture in how CAP arrive at values, there are thousands of cars traded weekly in this country that don't go near an auction, CAP gather thoughts and input from auctions and a lot of franchises and used dealers and even traders, this has always been the case, especially the values on cars up to 1 year old which cannot just be calculated by auction results through lack of 0-1 year old entry's, the bulk of these 0-1 year old cars entering the trade stay within the franchise networks, these franchises need to know a value and someone has to value them...anyone who has ever held a CAP subscription either in old monthly book format or later digital form will have had a call from CAP at sometime asking for your thoughts.

As for CAP fixing prices or whatever you want to call it?? that's bollocks, their sole aim is to be accurate to justify their existence and sell their product, they ain't buying cars are they....

Anyone on here who solely rely's on auction claimed CAP figures just remember this - they are compiled by admin staff in an office, don't presume they input it right every time every week, try buying a full CAP subscription, it's tax deductible, you might even learn something....

[Mark101 536]

I used to subscribe to CAP black book in my early days. Used to get laughed at because back then as Glass’ ruled the roost and I was a clear newbie.

Used to sell the books each month when the next one arrived, which more or less covered the subs.

There’s a good ole days story for @trade vet 

Edited November 9, 2019 by Mark101

[awc1000 93]

both glass and cap were critical in my world of underwriting and trade buying out of franchises, not for values but as a weapon for nicking cheap cars, both books were always wrong, both books had many models missing, obscene amounts of money were made by agreeing with idiot sales managers on book prices, most of them were only ever up to speed on their own brand, and usually clueless on most other brands, factor in the bung culture as well for even cheaper cars and there was a 20 year period in this job when it was embarrassing, we used to joke that we couldn't afford to be drug dealers as the wage cut would be too much

[Stalker 180]

8 hours ago, Nick M.K. said:

Come again??? 

They deliberately lower the TRADE value to buy low? Private sellers don’t use Cap. How does this low valuation help BCA to sell HIGH to you and me??

So WBAC buy at between cap below and cap average, knowing that at auction it will most probably do better than cap clean. (Due to shortages of cars)
 

Private sellers don’t know the value of their car, they rely on WBAC to offer them a fair price. 
 

6 hours ago, awc1000 said:

As for CAP fixing prices or whatever you want to call it?? that's bollocks, their sole aim is to be accurate to justify their existence and sell their product, they ain't buying cars are they....

Cap aren’t fixing the prices, I reckon BCA are suppressing/cooking the values they pass on to CAP. 
(Especially on certain models to help them)

BCA are caps biggest contributor of trade prices. 

They are probably CAPs biggest customer. 
 

Also I’m guessing you guys know that for non Bca stock... lex , inchcape, leaseplan and large dealer groups BCA charge their vendors a higher price/commission  when cars achieve higher than cap prices.... now tell me lower book prices don’t help them. 
 

I know who’s talking bollocks 

[awc1000 93]

4 minutes ago, Stalker said:

So WBAC buy at between cap below and cap average, knowing that at auction it will most probably do better than cap clean. (Due to shortages of cars)
 

Private sellers don’t know the value of their car, they rely on WBAC to offer them a fair price. 
 

Cap aren’t fixing the prices, I reckon BCA are suppressing/cooking the values they pass on to CAP. 
(Especially on certain models to help them)

BCA are caps biggest contributor of trade prices. 

They are probably CAPs biggest customer. 
 

Also I’m guessing you guys know that for non Bca stock... lex , inchcape, leaseplan and large dealer groups BCA charge their vendors a higher price/commission  when cars achieve higher than cap prices.... now tell me lower book prices don’t help them. 
 

I know who’s talking bollocks 

think wires might be crossed here??, CAP are not affiliated with bca, CAP have thousands of u.k customers, CAPS main income is selling mostly desktop valuation packages to the franchise and used car networks, they are owned by solera group which has other automotive interests but not those you mention, bca are simply 1 customer, manheim are simply 1 customer too, the auctions choose to use CAP, as it's seen as the best all round valuation product, 

as for the bca/wbac situation, they don't rely on CAP prices for buying, they have a different buying criteria based on auction demand and seasons, auction results are public too so i don't see how you could presume its a fix, for the record depending on season the wbac bid range can be as low as 50% cap clean and as high as 110% cap clean depending on product.

[trade vet 697]

On 11/9/2019 at 2:56 AM, awc1000 said:

think wires might be crossed here??, CAP are not affiliated with bca, CAP have thousands of u.k customers, CAPS main income is selling mostly desktop valuation packages to the franchise and used car networks, they are owned by solera group which has other automotive interests but not those you mention, bca are simply 1 customer, manheim are simply 1 customer too, the auctions choose to use CAP, as it's seen as the best all round valuation product, 

as for the bca/wbac situation, they don't rely on CAP prices for buying, they have a different buying criteria based on auction demand and seasons, auction results are public too so i don't see how you could presume its a fix, for the record depending on season the wbac bid range can be as low as 50% cap clean and as high as 110% cap clean depending on product.

Hi,just seen this.Tinternet not good where I am at the moment.

The bottom line is that what the big auction groups need to do to attract the business is to have contracts with their major vendors which often guarantee 95% of Cap Clean for all their entries.BCA might have 100k Autolease entries per year alone.Also they bought and sold over 300,000 WBAC cars last year .So it could be in the auctions better interests to try and surpress their results.I agree with Stalker,why is it when proper stuff regularly brings a grand over,yet book valuations continue to rarely reflect the market.This has only happened in recent years.Like most things in this job,things are rarely what they seem.....I hope that makes sense !

[TangoVictor32 90]

BCA cap is all made up by themselves. Independent auction houses always value a car at a lower cap range.

Few years ago i tried putting the same car i purchase via bca back in bca and they valued it at a lower cap range because they said something along the lines of you being private entry and not a hot ticket big vendor...

Some of the cars that are sold privately sell at much less than cap average.

BCA know there's too many new dummies at auction that rely on their catalogue and they are fobbing these guys off and creaming in good returns. 

Why buy from bca at cap average when you can go and haggle a private seller Mike Brewer style?

WBAC always offer significantly less than a private sale. Most punters that use WBAC either cant be arsed with selling it themselves or their car is shagged or they genuinely think they are getting a valauble service from them at a good price.

Edited November 11, 2019 by TangoVictor32

[awc1000 93]

11 hours ago, TangoVictor32 said:

BCA cap is all made up by themselves. Independent auction houses always value a car at a lower cap range.

Few years ago i tried putting the same car i purchase via bca back in bca and they valued it at a lower cap range because they said something along the lines of you being private entry and not a hot ticket big vendor...

Some of the cars that are sold privately sell at much less than cap average.

BCA know there's too many new dummies at auction that rely on their catalogue and they are fobbing these guys off and creaming in good returns. 

Why buy from bca at cap average when you can go and haggle a private seller Mike Brewer style?

WBAC always offer significantly less than a private sale. Most punters that use WBAC either cant be arsed with selling it themselves or their car is shagged or they genuinely think they are getting a valauble service from them at a good price.

Some good points, as mentioned before the quoted CAP price at auction whether online or printed catalogue is often wrong, but whether this is on purpose is debatable, even vendors can manipulate a result, auctions simply input entry data that a vendor has given them, no way would an auction admin member have the skills to question every entry, iv'e seen the software some franchises are using and it is possible to value a unit more by claiming it has certain spec when it hasn't, whatever your thoughts are the fact is auctions do not have to manipulate prices anymore, its easy to sell, and its easy to return a vendor over CAP price, all simply because of one factor that nobody has touched on - credit, whether that is auction credit, or stocking loan company's etc, either way buying credit at auction is now vast hence the bun fight for stock and daft prices.

few points regarding vendors paying more and auctions ripping off dummies / newcomers, vendors- all fleets and groups already know the true CAP value, they all have managers and don't need auctions to tell them the value of their entry, they all have it good and are not paying much, some are paying as little as £50 a unit, buyers - auction profit has firmly moved onto the buyer and has done for some years now, exactly what do you think you are getting for a 300-600 indemnity?? the answer is the worlds dearest hpi check, a private can buy a water tight gold hpi report for £25, the trade much less.

whatever your thoughts are don't forget CAP valuations are like other valuation tools just an opinion.

[awc1000 93]

17 minutes ago, tradex said:

You will find most of the larger group auction vendors won't be paying any entry fee and, have free collection too, that's how much things have changed over the years. 

very true, some groups who use the auction software are even being advanced funds on a unit when they deal it, they are getting paid out a minimum before the auction even pick the car up.

[Casper 272]

1 hour ago, tradex said:

You will find most of the larger group auction vendors won't be paying any entry fee and, have free collection too, that's how much things have changed over the years. 

 

1 hour ago, awc1000 said:

very true, some groups who use the auction software are even being advanced funds on a unit when they deal it, they are getting paid out a minimum before the auction even pick the car up.

Both very much the case