Warranty rights

[ARSENALGUNNER 0]

Hi guys, 

 

We recent sold a vehicle which was advertised with a remap and advised the customer manufactures warranty would be void against the engine/transmission but we would warrant the vehicle. 2 weeks into ownership the customer sent the car in for a (20.08.19) service and a significant oil leak was discovered around the gearbox/diff area and was booked in for investigation 2.9.19. We advised the customer we would be on hand to help once diagnosed and advised the customer not to drive the car as it would cause further problems. It now transpires the customer has continued to drive the car and it has now developed a further noise which i assume would of been related to the transmission/diff. 

 

The vehicle is now being transported back to our place (250miles away) and we will investigate further. My issue is although we are willing to help with the situation should we carry out the repair which the customer may of potentially made worse due to driving it with the oil leak? The manufacture advised him it needed urgent investigation and he also had oil on his drive but ignored this along with our command to not drive the car. 

 

Any advise would be greatly appriciated 

[Funny Farm 7]

If you have proof of mileage when fault was discovered (Garage diagnostic/estimate?) and you have written evidence you specifically told the customer not to drive the car from that point, you certainly have a case. At the time of the diagnostic you were dealing with a possible gasket replacement now it could be argued the customer has increased the cost of repair simply by ignoring your instructions.

However if the matter went to court, you would need to demonstrate that you had a pre delivery inspection, as any judge would say the oil leak should have been spotted and repaired prior to sale.

My advice is pay £70 per month, get lawgistic's involved and you will definitely save a lot of time, hassle and money dealing with the case yourself.

 

[ARSENALGUNNER 0]

Thanks for your advice and I will be calling Lawgistics. The customer has covered over 250miles after Volkswagen telling him about the oil leak which is confirmed via his service invoice and from us collecting his vehicle on a tow truck. We advised him verbally not to drive the vehicle and Volkswagen stated the same but he's ignored the instruction. 

 

My thoughts are to have an independant mechanic http://www.ace-uk.org to give a report on the vehicle as we know the oil leak wasn't present at point of sale. We know the oil leak wasn't there at point of sale as it has been road tested and left in our showroom (tiled floor). Pre delivery check was done on the vehicle and customer was advised the only thing flagged was the brake pads needed changing but he asked for this to be deducted from the price which we did. 

 

What do you guys think? Customer arranged his own finance through his broker... We've never had a situation like this and would never of got our back up if he didn't drive it after the leak was discovered. 

[It's me 615]

2 minutes ago, ARSENALGUNNER said:

. Pre delivery check was done on the vehicle and customer was advised the only thing flagged was the brake pads needed changing but he asked for this to be deducted from the price which we did. 

 

this concerns me

are you saying your inspection flagged pads low but still offered the car for sale but reduced the price so customer could fit or have fitted replacement pads

[ARSENALGUNNER 0]

1 minute ago, jason doyle motor sales said:

this concerns me

are you saying your inspection flagged pads low but still offered the car for sale but reduced the price so customer could fit or have fitted replacement pads

The pads were still ok for 2-3000miles and the discount covered the replacement which he had done as advised. 

[It's me 615]

Just now, ARSENALGUNNER said:

The pads were still ok for 2-3000miles and the discount covered the replacement which he had done as advised. 

well i wont do that because you have no idea who might buy the car if pads are only fit for such a low mileage

im just saying because before you go legal this could be construed as you not doing a pdi properly 

 

i feel your pain with the damage possibly caused but we all know customers dont care so really i would have got the car off him because in court he could argue he needed a car and a discourtious one wasnt offered

im not flaming im just saying

 

[Earunder 69]

Extremely tricky decision and one that if went to court I'm sorry to say you will most likely lose.

The ACE reports are vital if you are going to defend it.  Most companies use these to verify independent complaints / issues.  That would not be your problem.  Your problem is that the vehicle went wrong so quickly, we all know it's pot luck on these types of things but a Judge, in law, does not see it like this.

You should think about

1) is it worth all your time, hassle and money to go down the road to dispute something that may or may not cost an arm and a leg

OR

2) simply just offer the customer a full refund, fix it, sell it on to someone "more responsible". 

He sounds like a lemon driving a car when advised not to so the possibilities of further issues with him / her are pretty high.

[ARSENALGUNNER 0]

2 minutes ago, jason doyle motor sales said:

well i wont do that because you have no idea who might buy the car if pads are only fit for such a low mileage

im just saying because before you go legal this could be construed as you not doing a pdi properly 

 

i feel your pain with the damage possibly caused but we all know customers dont care so really i would have got the car off him because in court he could argue he needed a car and a discourtious one wasnt offered

im not flaming im just saying

 

Agree with what your saying totally and we aren't one from shying away from a problem but the fact hes driven over 200 miles knowing there's an issue has really annoyed me. 

3 minutes ago, Earunder said:

Extremely tricky decision and one that if went to court I'm sorry to say you will most likely lose.

The ACE reports are vital if you are going to defend it.  Most companies use these to verify independent complaints / issues.  That would not be your problem.  Your problem is that the vehicle went wrong so quickly, we all know it's pot luck on these types of things but a Judge, in law, does not see it like this.

You should think about

1) is it worth all your time, hassle and money to go down the road to dispute something that may or may not cost an arm and a leg

OR

2) simply just offer the customer a full refund, fix it, sell it on to someone "more responsible". 

He sounds like a lemon driving a car when advised not to so the possibilities of further issues with him / her are pretty high.

 

Thank you for your input, never had to raise a case like this so a huge learning process. Customer has obviously been launching and thrashing the car by the sounds of things ,  I'm just worried that a seal/gasket repair has now become a gearbox/diff replacement issue. 

[Earunder 69]

13 minutes ago, ARSENALGUNNER said:

Thank you for your input, never had to raise a case like this so a huge learning process. Customer has obviously been launching and thrashing the car by the sounds of things ,  I'm just worried that a seal/gasket repair has now become a gearbox/diff replacement issue. 

We've all been there in this situation with customers neglecting their vehicles and unfortunately this is part and parcel of the trade as you get some right turnips like the one you've got right now.  I understand your concerns and share your anger as it were, but just way up the pro's and cons. 

Take the hit, fix it, sell it and move on without it on your mind - My choice

Argue it out, spend money on reports, spend time and mental worry on it, then wait for months for the court date.
Don't forget the finance company will also do an ACE report.  The only worry, even on the report you instruct, is as the fault was so quick, they could turn round and write in the report there is a "possibility" of the leak being there at purchase.  That will in turn lose you the case outright.

Everyone learns in this trade constantly, anyone who says any different are full of it.  I've been doing this for 17 years and am still learning as it's constantly a changing market and industry.

Good luck with what you decide.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Earunder

[ARSENALGUNNER 0]

10 minutes ago, Earunder said:

We've all been there in this situation with customers neglecting their vehicles and unfortunately this is part and parcel of the trade as you get some right turnips like the one you've got right now.  I understand your concerns and share your anger as it were, but just way up the pro's and cons. 

Take the hit, fix it, sell it and move on without it on your mind - My choice

Argue it out, spend money on reports, spend time and mental worry on it, then wait for months for the court date.
Don't forget the finance company will also do an ACE report.  The only worry, even on the report you instruct, is as the fault was so quick, they could turn round and write in the report there is a "possibility" of the leak being there at purchase.  That will in turn lose you the case outright.

Everyone learns in this trade constantly, anyone who says any different are full of it.  I've been doing this for 17 years and am still learning as it's constantly a changing market and industry.

Good luck with what you decide.

Your right, I'm just going to bite the bullet and get it sorted. Thank you for your help and time guys. 

[sellect2 19]

If the man has caused more problems by driving the car when told not to- you should tell him, and get him to contribute fairly to the repair. You are perfectly within your rights. 

Dont just roll over- if he’s caused costs he should pay his fair proportion. 

[Jack Regan 116]

If he was told not to drive it and ignored this and done 200 miles plus , then he'd be on his own .

and as for the brake pads , he knew they was a bit low due to pdi , again his choice , he wan wanted money off .

[ARSENALGUNNER 0]

2 hours ago, sellect2 said:

If the man has caused more problems by driving the car when told not to- you should tell him, and get him to contribute fairly to the repair. You are perfectly within your rights. 

Dont just roll over- if he’s caused costs he should pay his fair proportion. 

My only concern is the customer going down the rejection route and his finance company actioning debt recovery? I've never been in this situation, the customer arranged his own finance through a broker so not sure what would happen...

1 hour ago, Jack Regan said:

If he was told not to drive it and ignored this and done 200 miles plus , then he'd be on his own .

and as for the brake pads , he knew they was a bit low due to pdi , again his choice , he wan wanted money off .

Pads £200 and service £350, we allowed £1000 off... 

 

 

I’ve  spoken with ACE today and explained the situation and they agree this neglect from the customer isn’t acceptable. My plan is to have the car diagnosed by Volkswagen and then have ACE come out and carry out their independent report then assess the situation from there. Part of me is thinking to bite the bullet and accept the loss (potentially 3-6k) or fight it...

[Casper 272]

16 minutes ago, ARSENALGUNNER said:

My only concern is the customer going down the rejection route and his finance company actioning debt recovery? I've never been in this situation, the customer arranged his own finance through a broker so not sure what would happen...

Pads £200 and service £350, we allowed £1000 off... 

 

 

I’ve  spoken with ACE today and explained the situation and they agree this neglect from the customer isn’t acceptable. My plan is to have the car diagnosed by Volkswagen and then have ACE come out and carry out their independent report then assess the situation from there. Part of me is thinking to bite the bullet and accept the loss (potentially 3-6k) or fight it...

Fight it all the way . 

[Stalker 180]

What is the exact make and model? Year? Mileage? 

A grand off for a service and pads sounds a bit generous/desperate to me. 

[Tony911 79]

You have got to ask yourself is it worth the head ache? Problem having occurred very early after purchase and him not been supplied with a courtesy car to use if he depends on it for work will all work in their favor

[Casper 272]

I would fight the fact he used it after  being told not though I always get them to sign to that affect .

[TangoVictor32 90]

2 hours ago, Stalker said:

What is the exact make and model? Year? Mileage? 

A grand off for a service and pads sounds a bit generous/desperate to me. 

Fishy to me...

Get that done for less than £200 depending on service type.

 

With plenty of gsf codes at 60%

 

Hmm

Edited August 29, 2019 by TangoVictor32

[sellect2 19]

We have rights as well. 

Sounds like you've been more than fair. I would certainly challenge him, as he was told not to use it. 

The finance company may well help, by the way. Probably in their interest to keep the deal on. (I have had to refund in the past when I thought it was not fair. Negotiated with the finance and refunded original price less about £500 ) . 

Speak to the finance company, straight away, see if he’s spoken to them. ( he has to reject with them by the way). Let them know the situation, be pro active  

Worst case you refund, but he’s entitled to stand at least some of the cost  , I would make him aware of this  

Surprising what can be achieved when you talk to all involved, and tell them clearly where you stand, bearing in mind you still have the fall back of money back if forced

 

Just my thoughts!.  

[ARSENALGUNNER 0]

11 hours ago, sellect2 said:

We have rights as well. 

Sounds like you've been more than fair. I would certainly challenge him, as he was told not to use it. 

The finance company may well help, by the way. Probably in their interest to keep the deal on. (I have had to refund in the past when I thought it was not fair. Negotiated with the finance and refunded original price less about £500 ) . 

Speak to the finance company, straight away, see if he’s spoken to them. ( he has to reject with them by the way). Let them know the situation, be pro active  

Worst case you refund, but he’s entitled to stand at least some of the cost  , I would make him aware of this  

Surprising what can be achieved when you talk to all involved, and tell them clearly where you stand, bearing in mind you still have the fall back of money back if forced

 

Just my thoughts!.  

Thanks, really helpful and supportive advice. We have the car booked in at VW for Monday so will see what they say. Is there anyway of having the ECU read to see how the cars been driven over the last 2 weeks? It would be helpful if theres some recording of the speeds and how many times launch control has been engaged etc as this would make us more determined to fight the case but on the flip side if it was driven perfectly fine we will pay for damages and return to customer. 

 

Can the finance company demand the deal to be unwound without us having the chance to repair? We've sold over 2000 cars and never had this issue, all sports and performance vehicles mainly within warranty so its all a dark area when things like this happen! 

 

ACE seemed very determined I should fight it from the conversation I had with them but not sure if there just wanting me to book with them... Wish I had signed up with Lawgistics before just to have some clarity on situations like this, I believe they'll be charging more because we have an ongoing case according to a friend in the trade. 

Edited August 30, 2019 by ARSENALGUNNER

[MattR 177]

£1000  off because the pads are low? It sounds like youre selling nearly new stuff, this should be done before it goes out at that age and price range, as should a service, that way you can command the asking price.

Mapped cars will surely attract someone likely to use the performance to the full and if the launch control is there, he's within his rights to use it assuming its safe to do so. The car will prevent more launch controls than it can cope with itself (unless the map change over rides that function) so whether you can get that info or not is fairly irrelevant.

How will this go in front of a magistrate? Well the fault occurred within a couple of weeks of purchase, I think that will be your issue. He may be forced to pay a little if he has ignored the 'dont drive it ' advice, but other than that i've a feeling this is down to you

[BHM 994]

1 hour ago, ARSENALGUNNER said:

Is there anyway of having the ECU read to see how the cars been driven over the last 2 weeks? It would be helpful if theres some recording of the speeds and how many times launch control has been engaged etc 

 Are you serious? Your defence is going to revolve around “He’s used the car’s O.E. launch control to much & has gone too fast”?

If you have confidence your paperwork is correct fuck him off. If it’s not (and I’m guessing you’re not confident) either sort it or fuck him off.

A business service taking your side in order to gain your custom. Who on earth would think such a thing!?!!!!

 

1 hour ago, ARSENALGUNNER said:

Wish I had signed up with Lawgistics before just to have some clarity on situations like this, I believe they'll be charging more because we have an ongoing case according to a friend in the trade. 

Would they even get involved in an ongoing case? More fool them if they would!

[David Horgan 564]

18 hours ago, ARSENALGUNNER said:

Pads £200 and service £350, we allowed £1000 off...

I really hope you come out of this well , I seriously do .

But a few  questions spring in my mind .

1 ;; Why sell a car that wants a service ? bad idea in my head as your just waiting for another garage to get stuck into your wallet .

2; Same as above with the brake pads isn't it , why not change them when doing the PDI ? 2,000 miles  in a performance car can be as low as 200 miles in a lunatics hands , especially when he's first let loose in his new 250 bhp car  . 

3 ;; £1,000 off the car as a discount for £60 worth of oil and filter and four brake pads , 

4 ;;Did the car get inspected in your own workshop on a ramp so as to be positive the gearbox wasn't losing oil ? 

As I said i really hope you come out on top , but performance cars in the wrong hands  that's not FULLY prepped and totally sure about is a route to disaster in my mind , we sell some meaty powerful stuff on one side of our business and they are prepped to death, serviced , nut and bolted , driven 100 miles , back in workshop and checked again . Ramp time is no less than 8 hours for each car . Its amazing what we find that's been done wrong , cheap parts , not tightened up , missing , leaking , and the rest . 

All the best . 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by David Horgan

[Casper 272]

26 minutes ago, David Horgan said:

I really hope you come out of this well , I seriously do .

But a few  questions spring in my mind .

1 ;; Why sell a car that wants a service ? bad idea in my head as your just waiting for another garage to get stuck into your wallet .

2; Same as above with the brake pads isn't it , why not change them when doing the PDI ? 2,000 miles  in a performance car can be as low as 200 miles in a lunatics hands , especially when he's first let loose in his new 250 bhp car  . 

3 ;; £1,000 off the car as a discount for £60 worth of oil and filter and four brake pads , 

4 ;;Did the car get inspected in your own workshop on a ramp so as to be positive the gearbox wasn't losing oil ? 

As I said i really hope you come out on top , but performance cars in the wrong hands  that's not FULLY prepped and totally sure about is a route to disaster in my mind , we sell some meaty powerful stuff on one side of our business and they are prepped to death, serviced , nut and bolted , driven 100 miles , back in workshop and checked again . Ramp time is no less than 8 hours for each car . Its amazing what we find that's been done wrong , cheap parts , not tightened up , missing , leaking , and the rest . 

All the best . 

 

 

I agree David theres no such thing as too much preparation 

I think your better doing the required work like brake pads servicing fresh mot etc 

if customer wants money off for small faults I just politely decline and say I'm not and wouldn't feel happy putting something out thats no up to my usual high standards . And that it will be taken care off during pre delivery inspection Even mostly do all the advisories on mot unless it something daft .  

Having said that A/GUNNER I wish you all the best 

and stick to your guns with the regards to customer using car when told not too .. 

Edited August 30, 2019 by Casper

[ARSENALGUNNER 0]

Service was due in in 2 months or 3k miles whichever came first, no service light but on our PDI we note these so we know customers will negotiate on future expenses. The rear brake pads were 8-9mm notes on the PDI and again both the service and pads would of been but the customer was eager to get into he car, lives over 200 miles away so we wrapped the deal up. No light was on for the pads and the service count down wasn't even displayed so its not a case of these required immediate attention. We don't service in-house as all our vehicles have main dealer history. All cars are road tested, there always on the ramp when being PDI'd and we use the lawgistics pdi check list to ensure everything done with proper readings. We don't cut corners it's just this customer was eager to get into this vehicle that was fresh into stock. 

Either way we will deal with it accordingly, these things happen often for some dealers but like I've mentioned before this is the first time we've had something like hence coming on here.