Refunding customer

[Tony911 79]

Hi, new here really need some advice on a used car we sold to a customer.

Sorry but it will take a while so please take in all information and give us some advice as this is the first time in 10 years of trading to come across a situation like this.

We got a mercedes ml270 as a trade in was advertised as no warranty and told the customer before he left deposit there was a fault with the glow plug light staying on for a while but starts and drives as it should, on his 6 hour return journey home the car broke down due to accelerator pedal sensor, had aa come out to his location and got it going for him and managed to get the car back home. Few days later get a call saying glow plugs are snapped in the head and he wants a full refund. We advised him we could only be held responsible for the accelerator pedal issue as he was fully aware there was a problem with glow plugs and we had not inspected it as that is our policy on part exchange stock and clearly advertised. Long story short as this continued for a while and he filed a small claim against us, few weeks before court we bit the bullet and decided to go collect the car and pay the full refund of the car, asked the customer few days before our arrival if the car starts and he told us the garage it is at have started it with a booster pack.

On our arrival we are told the garage has lost the key and there isn't another and the garage owner said we couldn't drive the car either because it was stuck in 1st gear being a automatic but there has never been any mention of gearbox issues in the past from customer or the garages report. Garage advised they would return car at their cost and have a new key made from dealers.

Here is the interesting part customer says he will contact the courts next day and have case put on hold until this matter is resolved, little to our knowledge the following day we recieved a letter from the courts stating customer had not paid the hearing fees and his cas was struck out and a couple of weeks later another letter stating his application to reinstate the case was not granted and the case is struck out and will need to start all over again. We never told the customer we had received this information as we would settle it as agreed, couple of weeks later advised by customer garage had got in to the car and reassured us a new key would arrive next week as garage had 100% ordered it from main dealers, a month later customer comtacts us saying they will deliver the car next week and we advised him that we want a inspection carried out on the car as we are worried about the gearbox issue your garage told us about just to make sure no parts have been removed and if all is well money will be transferred asap. Upon hearing this customer got very aggressive and saying we are not allowed to start the car it will be unloaded once monies have been paid. We have refused this and now he is saying he will be putting in a new case. Now do we have the right to have the car inspected surely you would think we are allowed to start the bloody thing, how do we even know if there is a key for the car. ANY HELP ON THIS MATTER. THANKS 

[EPV 631]

The car sounds like a fucking shed. 

Refund the customer, put the car in the bin and remember that this has never happened in 10 years and put it down to experience and move on? 

[Del Boy 76]

1 minute ago, EPV said:

The car sounds like a fucking shed. 

Refund the customer, put the car in the bin and remember that this has never happened in 10 years and put it down to experience and move on? 

I don’t agree. Why should he give in? This bloke might be in bed with the mechanics, buying cars from dealers, stripping them for parts then getting a full refund? 

I would accept the car back and have a mechanic with you to give a neutral assessment of the vehicle upon its return. If it’s been played about with then use the report in court.

 

 

[Tony911 79]

So you are saying to take a car back that we are not even allowed to see if there is a key? 

[AutoJacob 34]

Argue it all the way, people like this are absolute parasites and think they can pull a fast one because the law is on their side.

No refund unless a full health check / mechanical inspection is done by an independent technician showing that there's no signs of missing parts and you have a programmed working key in hand.

[Tony911 79]

That's what we are saying but the garage owner and customer are saying we are not allowed to start the car never mind to have it checked over. The mot centre where the car is has so many bad reviews its unreal. How do we know that they have not broke in to the car dumped it on a trailor and want a refund. There might not even been a engine in there. From my understanding we need the car returning as was when sold excluding the faults what have been complained about. 

[EPV 631]

I’ve had an afternoon off and probably a bit too much goodwill to all men. 

I suppose when I read the car was “sold without warranty” and “sold with a fault” I lost enthusiasm for doing anything (in my mind) other than getting rid of the bloke and car. 

I don’t retail stuff with significant faults like this so i’m definitely the wrong person to give advice so i’ll stay out of it. 

[NOACROSS 414]

Let them have their day in court then  

How much was the junk?

[EPV 631]

1 minute ago, Tony911 said:

That's what we are saying but the garage owner and customer are saying we are not allowed to start the car never mind to have it checked over. The mot centre where the car is has so many bad reviews its unreal. How do we know that they have not broke in to the car dumped it on a trailor and want a refund. There might not even been a engine in there. From my understanding we need the car returning as was when sold excluding the faults what have been complained about. 

You do of course have the right to inspect the car mate. 

My initial reply was probably a half hearted one as this sounds like a right headache. 

Get the car back, with a working key, explain you will be inspecting the vehicle and if the only issue with the car is the glow plug one you will refund but after you have had the car delivered back and inspected. Pretty much ignore his rants and threats and get on with your life. 

[Tony911 79]

They will not allow it, so we have told them no refund will be given, we have also wrote to the courts explaining our concerns and efforts to resolve the issue. How does he go on about starting a new case as courts wont allow him to reinstate so doubt he should be able to start a new one. Also it should now fall on the garage as we travelled 6 hours to collect the car only to be told no key but few days earlier we was told that the garage had started the car. 

9 minutes ago, NOACROSS said:

Let them have their day in court then  

How much was the junk?

£2000

[Del Boy 76]

If he isn’t agreeing to your terms regarding inspection then get his comments in writing and see him in court. 

[Tony911 79]

Honestly what a head ache. I dont understand if there isn't anything to hide then what is the problem

[NOACROSS 414]

Life in the city. Occasionally you get mugged. 

They could have robbed it for bits/swapped them over for use on another car. If their reviews are crap then it’s another string to your defence- should you want to fight it.

Gotta ask yourself though if it’s worth it for a couple of grand. Not to be sniffed at I know, but it’s still got some value for parts (especially if you strip it and piecemeal it out if you have the room) or export.

I would probably leave it for them to do their worst though to be honest. Are you a Lawgistics member?

[trade vet 703]

Hi Tony

You can’t just write no warranty on a sales invoice for a private punter.Also was the glow plug light problem stated on your invoice and signed for.

I would say that you need to contact the court in order for them to advise whether the same claim can be reinstated or a new claim can be commenced.I think you can claim costs for the struck out case.

Try and find out if the guy is in the trade,he could be.

The judge will rely on your paperwork and if it doesn’t comply with CRA ,you will come second.

 

 

 

[EPV 631]

6 minutes ago, trade vet said:

Hi Tony

You can’t just write no warranty on a sales invoice for a private punter.Also was the glow plug light problem stated on your invoice and signed for.

I would say that you need to contact the court in order for them to advise whether the same claim can be reinstated or a new claim can be commenced.I think you can claim costs for the struck out case.

Try and find out if the guy is in the trade,he could be.

The judge will rely on your paperwork and if it doesn’t comply with CRA ,you will come second.

 

 

 

Sound advice in my opinion.   

[Tony911 79]

Contacted courts they have advised us he will need to start a new case as his application to reinstate was declined. Didn't write glow plugs issue on invoice but do have the text messages before he put down a deposit saying there is a fault with them and we have not had it looked at as we dont invest sufficient time in part exchange stock. How do we know the garage didn't snap the glow plugs while trying to change them? 

[Del Boy 76]

2 minutes ago, Tony911 said:

Contacted courts they have advised us he will need to start a new case as his application to reinstate was declined. Didn't write glow plugs issue on invoice but do have the text messages before he put down a deposit saying there is a fault with them and we have not had it looked at as we dont invest sufficient time in part exchange stock. How do we know the garage didn't snap the glow plugs while trying to change them? 

They probably did but you won’t be able to prove it so I’d forget about that. 

[Tom 164]

A glow plug light on a merc doesn't necessarily mean there's a fault with the glow plugs per se. 

All sounds very dodgy to me, Garage and cuntomer not letting you start the thing and "lost the key". hmm!

[Zest 7]

Once a case is struck out can a claimant reapply for another case? I would check this out properly.

Since this involves a business and consumer, the courts will ask you, the business, to prove the goods were fit for purpose at the time of sale.

Since you have the text messages about the glow plugs before he bought the car, you can use that as proof the customer knew he would be purchasing an otherwise fit for purpose car, minus the fault already presented to him. 

 

A friend asked me to be his lawyer for a small claims against his business and we won. Having been through that I believe you can easily win this case, however for the amount of time you would spend to prepare and defend the case, you could easily put into buying and selling a couple of cars and making a few k that way, so it's not logical to waste time on this case when you can spend your time wisely elsewhere.

 

I would tell the billy you're happy to refund him provided the car repaired back to the same condition it was sold to him in AND it be driven back to you, none of this funny recovery business.

Also, only email or text him from now on. If he rings, tell him to communicate to you in writing (so you have proof of all comms if needed).

How can the gearbox be stuck in 1st AND the key be missing? Even my old 1993 Mercedes didn't let me remove the key from the ignition unless the gear lever was in Park - how have they managed to do it?

 

Did they remove the ECU and key, fit it to another car and fit this with a duff ECU or something? 

 

Definitely do a full inspection if it comes to it.

[Tony911 79]

7 minutes ago, Zest said:

We have been to collect the car with no result. We are allowing them to bring the car back as long as we can inspect the vehicle but they are not allowing it. We dont want a car back with no key engine gearbox etc etc. 

 

No idea what they have done. Was promised a original key from Mercedes-Benz as they purchased it with a genuine key. We have contacted Mercedes-Benz dealer and explained to them and they have told us their is no way of them making a key without the car coming to 1 of their dealerships, so I have no idea how they have opened the doors and got it started as there nearest mercedes dealer is 2 hours away and it has not been to any Mercedes dealers to have a key made, 2 months after going to collect the car they have supposedly found the original key even though we was told a new key has been ordered from dealers but won't let us start it never mind get it inspected on day of return to us. 

21 minutes ago, Zest said:

Once a case is struck out can a claimant reapply for another case? I would check this out properly.

Since this involves a business and consumer, the courts will ask you, the business, to prove the goods were fit for purpose at the time of sale.

Since you have the text messages about the glow plugs before he bought the car, you can use that as proof the customer knew he would be purchasing an otherwise fit for purpose car, minus the fault already presented to him. 

 

A friend asked me to be his lawyer for a small claims against his business and we won. Having been through that I believe you can easily win this case, however for the amount of time you would spend to prepare and defend the case, you could easily put into buying and selling a couple of cars and making a few k that way, so it's not logical to waste time on this case when you can spend your time wisely elsewhere.

 

I would tell the billy you're happy to refund him provided the car repaired back to the same condition it was sold to him in AND it be driven back to you, none of this funny recovery business.

Also, only email or text him from now on. If he rings, tell him to communicate to you in writing (so you have proof of all comms if needed).

How can the gearbox be stuck in 1st AND the key be missing? Even my old 1993 Mercedes didn't let me remove the key from the ignition unless the gear lever was in Park - how have they managed to do it?

 

Did they remove the ECU and key, fit it to another car and fit this with a duff ECU or something? 

 

Definitely do a full inspection if it comes to it.

I think they used gearbox for 1 of their customers at the garage. No idea what they have done to the bag of shit. Definitely not the same car what was sold or they would allow a inspection. Something fishy going on. 

[David Ayers 171]

Ignore all this “can’t start it” rubbish. You have every right to inspect it.

I would write one court friendly email/letter saying that after your failed attempt to recover the car for a refund 2 months ago you are still willing to offer a refund providing the car is returned within 14 days in the same condition it was sold. 

If the car is not returned within that timeframe you will consider the matter closed.

If you receive any further correspondence/arguments refer them back to your previous communication.

 

[justlooking 48]

18 minutes ago, David Ayers said:

Ignore all this “can’t start it” rubbish. You have every right to inspect it.

I would write one court friendly email/letter saying that after your failed attempt to recover the car for a refund 2 months ago you are still willing to offer a refund providing the car is returned within 14 days in the same condition it was sold. 

If the car is not returned within that timeframe you will consider the matter closed.

If you receive any further correspondence/arguments refer them back to your previous communication.

 

Sounds logical. Cut down on your time spent being consumed with this idiot.

how will his actions be looked upon in court? What’s reasonable?

youve offered him a refund and he’s doing everything in his power to stop you doing exactly that!

[Tony911 79]

Thanks for the advice guys. It seems like we are being very reasonable travelled 6 hours to collect the car with no joy now wanting to get car inspected with no joy, what else could we do? 

[trade vet 703]

The bottom line is Tony,you have been a dealer for 10 years.A judge may consider you negligent and I doubt you can use a text message to a potential customer in your defence.I think your defence should be that you have previously offered a full refund dependent on being able to collect the vehicle.You have got to defend it,but be prepared to lose.Dont forget to put a claim in now to the customer for your factual costs leading up to the struck out hearing.I am not sure,but maybe you could consider counter claiming and including the garage who have lost the keys.

[Tony911 79]

Would the judge not look at the fact we have been to collect the car but due to the garage loosing the keys and telling us it wont drive as gearbox is knackered hence we want a inspection of the car to make sure there is no other faults or missing parts and also if the key is original or a different key with new ecu and locks?