Consumer Rights Act 2015

[NOACROSS 414]

 

5 minutes ago, grant8064 said:

No the customer is the solicitor!

You'd think they'd know better and understand that a ten year old vehicle won't achieve the same MPG as a brand new one tested in lab conditions but hey ho. Given the complaint and a couple of other spurious claims it's a simple refund and resell. Sometimes it's just not worth investing time in these 'people'

Wow. I'd tell him to 'go for his life & do his worst'.  Refund?  Really? Another (short term) owner on the log book to explain-paperwork, re-preparation costs etc. 

I can see why you don't want the headache perhaps, but he's taking the piss.  Free car hire for him is all it is.  Good on you for unwinding it I say.

 

 

[EPV 631]

5 minutes ago, grant8064 said:

No the customer is the solicitor!

You'd think they'd know better and understand that a ten year old vehicle won't achieve the same MPG as a brand new one tested in lab conditions but hey ho. Given the complaint and a couple of other spurious claims it's a simple refund and resell. Sometimes it's just not worth investing time in these 'people'

I agree but in that specific case I'd send one letter back saying you do not believe you have misrepresented the car as it's the manufacturer that makes that particular claim regarding MPG and they do so on the basis of selling new cars not used ones and that you won't be entering into any more correspondence on this particular subject. I'm buggered if I'm going through the hassle of buying and reselling the car on the basis of someone else's misinterpretation. 

2 minutes ago, NOACROSS said:

 

Wow. I'd tell him to 'go for his life & do his worst'.  Refund?  Really? Another (short term) owner on the log book to explain-paperwork, re-preparation costs etc. 

I can see why you don't want the headache perhaps, but he's taking the piss.  Free car hire for him is all it is.  Good on you for unwinding it I say.

 

 

+1

[grant8064 219]

1 minute ago, EPV said:

I agree but in that specific case I'd send one letter back saying you do not believe you have misrepresented the car as it's the manufacturer that makes that particular claim regarding MPG and they do so on the basis of selling new cars not used ones and that you won't be entering into any more correspondence on this particular subject. I'm buggered if I'm going through the hassle of buying and reselling the car on the basis of someone else's misinterpretation. 

It's all so laughable though that I really can't be bothered to expend any energy over someone like this.

Had it been in stock six months different story but we undersold it in the first place, for once i'm very happy to have it back. £500 extra on the screen and go again.

[bcars 0]

11 minutes ago, EPV said:

If you have done your dillegence in your prep a customer would find it very hard to prove the fault was there at the point of sale. As I said though, the reality is that as a business you would be doing all you could to remedy the situation, offering to fix the fault etc. It’s only when you were on the end of an unreasonable customer who refused to let you carry out a repair and demanded a refund would you reluctantly stand your ground and get all contractual. Others may see this differently but I personally don’t want the aggro or the bad rep. That said i’d stand my ground if a customer was trying to drum up a reason to get a refund because of buyers remorse or some other unrelated reason. 

On your pdi form. If you use a pdi form that is comprehensive, states that everything is working as it should and the customer signs the sheet below the carefully worded statement “this car is bloody perfect” (or words to that effect) then that is proof that the fault didn’t exist at the point of sale. It’s up to the customer to prove it did exist, assuming they want a refund. 

 

1 hour ago, MSP Motors said:

I think a lot of emphasis gets put on a pdi. Don't get me wrong, I do a pdi, I just don't believe it acts as proof as there being no fault present at point of sale. How can a customer sign to state there was no fault present at point of sale?

Maybe I'm different to everyone else, my pdi gets done as soon as I get a vehicle....... It can be months before I sell the car. I never give customers a copy of a pdi as I deem it irrelevant. 

Within the first 30 days I will break it down like this......

Is there a significant fault with the car? If so then offer to repair under warranty or refund...

If there is a minor fault with the car? (98%) offer to put right and no offer of refund. It is always up to the customer which route to take, but I am not prepared to take back a car with another owner because there is a knocking noise coming from the suspension, the airbag light has come on after 7 days, the starter motor has stopped working, etc. These issues are just normal day to day issues that happen on cars. That's why there are thousands upon thousands of garages.... It's a small issue, I'll gladly help you out but if you choose to go the other way than so be it.

Give me 5 chaps and I will send you all a "warts and all" run down......... 

[bcars 0]

Firstly a big thank you to all for the contribution it is much appreciated.

Now I can see that this forum isn't the norm, i.e. not full of lunatics or sad acts, I am more than happy to share situation, due to search engines picking up on the names of businesses I don't think it wise to share the name of the company or companies involved but will gladly tell you who I am if you PM me.

OK here we go....a quite genuinely lovely 2016, 19,000 mile, Golf R taken in p/ex from the one and only senior sensible (not an extra from fast & furious) owner, I know we all say it but in the best colour, best spec and unrivalled pedigree, priced bang right hence in stock for only 48 hours. Car has a fully documented VW main dealer, last serviced October 2017 at circa 17,000 miles. Test driven upon appraisal, drives lovely no issues, when it lands in p/ex I drive it again, no issues.

Due to the full history and no MOT requirement it goes for an RAC supplied Multi-point checklist (part of our dealer status standards), completed independently by an established garage, they tick all the boxes with exception to tyres, reported as 2 -3mm so I fit 4 x new Toyo speed rated quality tyres. Job done.

A lady from circa 150 miles away makes an enquiry, we have a bit of sport over her p/ex, a 1 owner FVWSH 11 year old MK5 Golf GTI and after a few calls, emails, etc she agrees a deal and pays a deposit, 4 days later she is on for collection.

Due to the nature of her previous car, the 11 year old slightly dated GTI, and what she is buying I unusually, upon my insistence not hers, take her for a test drive prior to her handing over her money, mainly as I wanted her to understand the dynamics of the "R" and how the different modes work including the Race / Lunatic mode. We went for a test drive on a flying mile or two, up and down hills and across country lanes so the entire spectrum, she has a drive and is very impressed with the car, hence we return and she can't pay her money fast enough, she says bye to her old MK5 GTI and drives home.

The very same afternoon I get a photograph of her son hanging out of the pano roof and a nice text thanking me for a wonderful car and the buying experience, happy customer.

I then totally unexpectedly get a text later on Monday to say nice car but there is a creaking, she has been on the net in the night and youtube has a string of MK7 Golf rear suspension issues, she has had friends in the car and they can also hear a creaking noise coming from around the back of the driver's seat area. I obviously responded promptly and told her to arrange to take it into her local VW dealer, the same one she is well known to who supplied and serviced her p/ex the MK5 GTI at least 9 times.

A little later she confirmed that she has booked it in with them but for me to not to do anything with her old car as it there is a problem she will want a refund, here we go!

I politely explained that considering the cars, pedigree, full VW history, RAC MPC and the fact the car has over 12 month of the manufacturer's warranty remaining it will get sorted so not to worry.

The lady then text me to confirm her booking and that she is to go on a diagnostic road test with the technician, at this point it is very evident she has been reading up on protocol and attempting to head toward a refund situation. She has the accompanied road test to report a creak from possibly the pan roof (not the suspension, surprise, surprise) and now a whistle at low acceleration, as we all know it's a Turbo which is typical.

At this stage I make contact with the dealer to mark their card just in case they try to condemn the car to get her into one of their group stock, my email to the them as below;

"Dear XXXXXXX, (one of the service team)

With reference to our recent conversation of 09:56 today please would kindly keep me in the loop regarding the Golf R – XXXXXXX, as you are probably aware this is a matter of some urgency as our mutual client, Mrs. XXXXXX XXXXXXXX, is alleging faults with the car, considering the pedigree of the car, i.e. 1 private senior gentleman owner, average to low mileage and that it has a full VW main dealer history, it is as far as we are concerned sold without fault. Although we must confess to not holding a franchise every car sold goes through an independent RAC multi-point check and any reported fault is remedied in advance of handover, it goes without saying this car was sold without fault, this car also had the benefit of 4 x new branded 92Y speed rated tyres, hence any obvious suspension fault (as hinted by Mrs. XXXXXXX) would have been noted and or rectified by both the tyre fitted and or independent RAC related inspection.

The customer also had, upon our insistence not hers, a test drive on Saturday prior to handover and the car was driven by both myself and the customer, again through all modes on a flying mile, up and down hills and across country roads, no fault was heard by either party. The customer then drove the car home and sent me a picture of her son in the car and a kind message to thank me for the car and the buying experience, so you can imagine her alleged claims of fault are a little strange. There can be instances of “buyers remorse” where what are characteristics of a car can be wrongly mistaken as a fault, i.e. a whistle which is evidently typical of a turbo enhanced power unit or they have read up on the consumer act of 2015 and attempt to fabricate fault(s) to gain a refund on a car that they aren’t comfortable with.

It is vital, as to save on financial loss for either related party, that you can report back with the findings as soon as humanly possible. In the rare and usual event of an incurable fault I will obviously have to refund the customer and then pursue VW for my losses, hence it is vital that any declaration made by or on behalf of XXXXXX is one of a most accurate nature as I may have to rely on it in a legal claims procedure, likewise if you report no fault or that it is a characteristic of the MK7 Golf or specifically related to the “R” model I also need written confirmation (email is fine) so I can confidently dismiss any attempt of an unjustified refund.

I apologies for the seriousness of my email but I have experienced once before a similar scenario on a BMW where a fault was claimed which led to a refund but proved inaccurate and the service agent had to compensate accordingly, however I am sure that any alleged fault can be remedied by a dealer of your stature.

Many thanks for your assistance in this matter"

The very latest is that she has a loan car for 2 days as the pano roof creak is to be remedied under warranty, as its a known fault, yet curable one, and the other alleged issue is being look at. 

My concern here is that how can a quality used car dealer be responsible when a car has a boat load of manufacturer warranty left on it, surely if it has a fault that can be resolved then it is negligence on behalf of the manufacturer????

As yet I won't know the outcome until close of play or later but interestingly how I can potentially be liable for what could be case of a car built at 5 to 5 on Friday or where the alleged fault is a characteristic of the car and not actually a fault as such.

I'll keep you all posted

[SuperLease 13]

I despair with some customers I really do. This job would be a whole lot easier without them :-) 

As far as I am aware you are not expected to retain any part exchanges on the off chance the deal has to be undone within the first 30 days that would just be business suicide and even if you still have the px you are not obliged to return it as part refund. Let the main dealer repair it, buy it back off the customer with no faults and then sell both cars retail. In my experience the sooner you nip these types of issues in the bud the better. 

 

Best of luck

[NOACROSS 414]

I can't get my head round it.  Surely it's VW's problem not yours! Oh well- good luck! (German crap. Hate all of it. Not like the old days....)

[trade vet 702]

1 hour ago, BHM said:

WRONG. You have to prove the fault wasn’t there at the point of sale - very different. Whether or not you refund is up to you but in theory all they have to allege is a specified fault & reject.

The best thing I’ve found is to f*** them off - it works 99% of the time.

Hi BHM 

You must have been reading the BCA training manual !

[EPV 631]

25 minutes ago, bcars said:

Firstly a big thank you to all for the contribution it is much appreciated.

Now I can see that this forum isn't the norm, i.e. not full of lunatics or sad acts, I am more than happy to share situation, due to search engines picking up on the names of businesses I don't think it wise to share the name of the company or companies involved but will gladly tell you who I am if you PM me.

OK here we go....a quite genuinely lovely 2016, 19,000 mile, Golf R taken in p/ex from the one and only senior sensible (not an extra from fast & furious) owner, I know we all say it but in the best colour, best spec and unrivalled pedigree, priced bang right hence in stock for only 48 hours. Car has a fully documented VW main dealer, last serviced October 2017 at circa 17,000 miles. Test driven upon appraisal, drives lovely no issues, when it lands in p/ex I drive it again, no issues.

Due to the full history and no MOT requirement it goes for an RAC supplied Multi-point checklist (part of our dealer status standards), completed independently by an established garage, they tick all the boxes with exception to tyres, reported as 2 -3mm so I fit 4 x new Toyo speed rated quality tyres. Job done.

A lady from circa 150 miles away makes an enquiry, we have a bit of sport over her p/ex, a 1 owner FVWSH 11 year old MK5 Golf GTI and after a few calls, emails, etc she agrees a deal and pays a deposit, 4 days later she is on for collection.

Due to the nature of her previous car, the 11 year old slightly dated GTI, and what she is buying I unusually, upon my insistence not hers, take her for a test drive prior to her handing over her money, mainly as I wanted her to understand the dynamics of the "R" and how the different modes work including the Race / Lunatic mode. We went for a test drive on a flying mile or two, up and down hills and across country lanes so the entire spectrum, she has a drive and is very impressed with the car, hence we return and she can't pay her money fast enough, she says bye to her old MK5 GTI and drives home.

The very same afternoon I get a photograph of her son hanging out of the pano roof and a nice text thanking me for a wonderful car and the buying experience, happy customer.

I then totally unexpectedly get a text later on Monday to say nice car but there is a creaking, she has been on the net in the night and youtube has a string of MK7 Golf rear suspension issues, she has had friends in the car and they can also hear a creaking noise coming from around the back of the driver's seat area. I obviously responded promptly and told her to arrange to take it into her local VW dealer, the same one she is well known to who supplied and serviced her p/ex the MK5 GTI at least 9 times.

A little later she confirmed that she has booked it in with them but for me to not to do anything with her old car as it there is a problem she will want a refund, here we go!

I politely explained that considering the cars, pedigree, full VW history, RAC MPC and the fact the car has over 12 month of the manufacturer's warranty remaining it will get sorted so not to worry.

The lady then text me to confirm her booking and that she is to go on a diagnostic road test with the technician, at this point it is very evident she has been reading up on protocol and attempting to head toward a refund situation. She has the accompanied road test to report a creak from possibly the pan roof (not the suspension, surprise, surprise) and now a whistle at low acceleration, as we all know it's a Turbo which is typical.

At this stage I make contact with the dealer to mark their card just in case they try to condemn the car to get her into one of their group stock, my email to the them as below;

"Dear XXXXXXX, (one of the service team)

 

With reference to our recent conversation of 09:56 today please would kindly keep me in the loop regarding the Golf R – XXXXXXX, as you are probably aware this is a matter of some urgency as our mutual client, Mrs. XXXXXX XXXXXXXX, is alleging faults with the car, considering the pedigree of the car, i.e. 1 private senior gentleman owner, average to low mileage and that it has a full VW main dealer history, it is as far as we are concerned sold without fault. Although we must confess to not holding a franchise every car sold goes through an independent RAC multi-point check and any reported fault is remedied in advance of handover, it goes without saying this car was sold without fault, this car also had the benefit of 4 x new branded 92Y speed rated tyres, hence any obvious suspension fault (as hinted by Mrs. XXXXXXX) would have been noted and or rectified by both the tyre fitted and or independent RAC related inspection.

 

The customer also had, upon our insistence not hers, a test drive on Saturday prior to handover and the car was driven by both myself and the customer, again through all modes on a flying mile, up and down hills and across country roads, no fault was heard by either party. The customer then drove the car home and sent me a picture of her son in the car and a kind message to thank me for the car and the buying experience, so you can imagine her alleged claims of fault are a little strange. There can be instances of “buyers remorse” where what are characteristics of a car can be wrongly mistaken as a fault, i.e. a whistle which is evidently typical of a turbo enhanced power unit or they have read up on the consumer act of 2015 and attempt to fabricate fault(s) to gain a refund on a car that they aren’t comfortable with.

 

It is vital, as to save on financial loss for either related party, that you can report back with the findings as soon as humanly possible. In the rare and usual event of an incurable fault I will obviously have to refund the customer and then pursue VW for my losses, hence it is vital that any declaration made by or on behalf of XXXXXX is one of a most accurate nature as I may have to rely on it in a legal claims procedure, likewise if you report no fault or that it is a characteristic of the MK7 Golf or specifically related to the “R” model I also need written confirmation (email is fine) so I can confidently dismiss any attempt of an unjustified refund.

 

I apologies for the seriousness of my email but I have experienced once before a similar scenario on a BMW where a fault was claimed which led to a refund but proved inaccurate and the service agent had to compensate accordingly, however I am sure that any alleged fault can be remedied by a dealer of your stature.

 

Many thanks for your assistance in this matter"

 

The very latest is that she has a loan car for 2 days as the pano roof creak is to be remedied under warranty, as its a known fault, yet curable one, and the other alleged issue is being look at. 

My concern here is that how can a quality used car dealer be responsible when a car has a boat load of manufacturer warranty left on it, surely if it has a fault that can be resolved then it is negligence on behalf of the manufacturer????

As yet I won't know the outcome until close of play or later but interestingly how I can potentially be liable for what could be case of a car built at 5 to 5 on Friday or where the alleged fault is a characteristic of the car and not actually a fault as such.

I'll keep you all posted

In this case I would personally buy the r back from her, keep the GTI and move on. This isn’t someone with a case of buyers remorse I don’t think, it’s a known fault which can be repaired under warranty. If she doesn’t want the car repaired, irrespective of the CRA and what she is and isn’t entitled to, i’d Give her a refund. 

15 minutes ago, NOACROSS said:

I can't get my head round it.  Surely it's VW's problem not yours! Oh well- good luck! (German crap. Hate all of it. Not like the old days....)

It's VW's financial problem but as bcars sold the Golf it's on him to deal with the situation as any good dealership would I think.

[Ocsltd 133]

How many miles has her part ex GTi done out of interest?

[Rory RSC 596]

Go and buy another car from somewhere else then love, and I hope when you have an issue with it they don't bother to help you in the way I would.

Ciao.

 

Also taking the Golf R with pan roof back will be easy to sell. Any Golf R with a bit of spec is an easy shift.

[MattR 177]

Fantastic letter to the VW dealer. My understanding of CRA is if you do refund, its the car price that you refund, not the p/ex and cash balance. So go ahead and make a little bit on her GTI. She may also be a little more reluctant to pursue for a refund if she doesnt have her old car to fall back on. I dont think this is buyers remorse, I think she will be happy if the creaking is fixed, shes just a bit nervous that shes bought a car that cannot be fixed. 

[bcars 0]

4 minutes ago, Matt Reid said:

Fantastic letter to the VW dealer. My understanding of CRA is if you do refund, its the car price that you refund, not the p/ex and cash balance. So go ahead and make a little bit on her GTI. She may also be a little more reluctant to pursue for a refund if she doesnt have her old car to fall back on. I dont think this is buyers remorse, I think she will be happy if the creaking is fixed, shes just a bit nervous that shes bought a car that cannot be fixed. 

Yes in the rare event of refund I am only liable to offer her total invoiced price back, regardless of whether or not I have traded or retailed the GTI.

[trade vet 702]

2 hours ago, grant8064 said:

Has there been a daytime TV programme about the CRA recently?

We've had four this month claiming various stuff...never known it to be so bad.

The latest one is from a solicitor in a ten year old hatchback claiming we've breached the sales of goods act through misrepresentation because it only does 33mpg and not the 40.1 the manufacturer states 

A solicitor,he was probably always going to chip you,it is their mentality.I know  of one who used to try it on with every car he got.Our guys knew him well ,they would not sell him a car.....Take him on,for starters,find out if he works in a practice,then send a recorded letter FAO the practice manager enclosing a letter of explanation addressed to your punter.His colleagues will then see it and take the piss.Make your letter as technical as you possibly can........play him at his own game.

 

[bcars 0]

23 minutes ago, Ocsltd said:

How many miles has her part ex GTi done out of interest?

just under 97k

[Ocsltd 133]

1 minute ago, bcars said:

just under 97k

Ok cheers

[andymc1973 199]

just back from the sales today and we are all getting lubed up and shafted on this, its all one way

[bcars 0]

latest update from the service dept at the VW dealer.....

"Thanks for your email, the investigation is currently on going. We have managed to stop a noise coming from the sun visors which is a common issue with our Gold R’s and Volkswagen have a solution which we have carried out.

However she has also mentioned a squeaking sound coming from the vehicle which we are currently assessing.

The customer is not happy with her loan car so I believe she will be collecting her vehicle today and possibly bringing it back in for further investigation.

So far we haven’t found any major issues or faults with the car and treating her complaints as warranty"

So accordinging to the customer we have gone from suspension fault to panoramic roof fault to now it's actually a simple faulty f****** sun visor and now turbo whistle is soon forgotten but she has added a squeaking to the mix, oh I did a mention she isn't happy with the new service loan car!!!

I am beginning to feel she is milking me for a free car for a few days until she can find a replacement, unfortunately for her, after a little citizens advice action, I can demand that she stops using the car, thats my next email request.

On another note does anyone have one of these bullet proof'ish PDI sheets or where can you get a "stand up in court" one from, is it lawgisitics?

[trade vet 702]

55 minutes ago, bcars said:

Yes in the rare event of refund I am only liable to offer her total invoiced price back, regardless of whether or not I have traded or retailed the GTI.

That’s right....you have got to keep the swapper !

[Ocsltd 133]

She's not happy with the loan car, think that sums her up..... (I bet she's divorced!!!) 

[Stephen 21]

Its a joke really you can sell a house for 150k you have to answer questionnaire, If its heating what kind when last serviced doesn't mean its going to work, hob yes never mention 2 rings don't work, built in f/f yes no mention that freezer doesn't work. No come back at all. Buy a car for £1000 find a problem and get full refund, seems like the card trade regs are excessive compared to other industries, bearing in mind the values

[metcars 397]

40 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Its a joke really you can sell a house for 150k you have to answer questionnaire, If its heating what kind when last serviced doesn't mean its going to work, hob yes never mention 2 rings don't work, built in f/f yes no mention that freezer doesn't work. No come back at all. Buy a car for £1000 find a problem and get full refund, seems like the card trade regs are excessive compared to other industries, bearing in mind the values

We'll all need to become "agents" then you relieve yourself of any responsibility?

[Rory RSC 596]

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

Its a joke really you can sell a house for 150k you have to answer questionnaire, If its heating what kind when last serviced doesn't mean its going to work, hob yes never mention 2 rings don't work, built in f/f yes no mention that freezer doesn't work. No come back at all. Buy a car for £1000 find a problem and get full refund, seems like the card trade regs are excessive compared to other industries, bearing in mind the values

Bang on 

Houses are less complex than a lot of cars to be fair 

[BHM 994]

She sounds a right cow & fancy that, a fussy VW buyer 

[MattR 177]

2 hours ago, Matt Reid said:

 I dont think this is buyers remorse, I think she will be happy if the creaking is fixed, shes just a bit nervous that shes bought a car that cannot be fixed. 

 

1 hour ago, bcars said:

The customer is not happy with her loan car so I believe she will be collecting her vehicle today and possibly bringing it back in for further investigation.

 

 

 

I Stand corrected, clearly a lunatic.