Complaint LAMBDA sensor failure

[Arfur Dealy 823]

Sold a Disco 3  28-12 which has had a Lambda sensor failure 10 days later. I offered to pay for the sensor and 60% labour costs (apparantly the gearbox has to be dropped). He happily agrees...

I just got this email.

Hi Simon

We spoke on the phone this Monday following a fault on the discovery I purchased from you. At the time you kindly offered to pay for the parts required and 60% of the labour costs as a “goodwill gesture”. Since then on the advice of our local garage we have taken advice on the procedures in circumstances such as these. Firstly, we are not doubting your integrity here. The vehicle was purchased for over £5000 in good faith on the understanding that it was in good working order. Unfortunately, it was unable to get us from A to B on two occasions less than two weeks from purchase, due to a fault, not wear and tear. Under these circumstances we have been advised that you should cover the full costs of the repairs and that it should not be a negotiable issue. Simon, we would never buy a used vehicle privately which is why we came to you. We hate awkward situations such as these and hope that you will agree to these terms. I look forward to hearing from you in due course. Please let me know if you require an estimate from our local garage. Regards

My Response

 

Hi James,

I am afraid the garage have given you bad information. Having carried out appropriate and recorded pre-sale checks, including an independent PDI check, I am completely confident the vehicle was of satisfactory quality at the point of sale and thus in full conformity to the statute and contract. 

The Consumer Rights Act 2015 is designed to protect buyers and sellers equally. The CRA specifically does not cover maintenance nor faults which would be expected due to the age / mileage & subsequent appropriate wear n tear. You purchased an 11 year old vehicle, which was 8 years past the period of which the Manufacturer was prepared to warrant the condition. A sensor failing on an 11 year old vehicle is quite simply wear n tear.

Out of goodwill and to be completely gentlemanly, I offered to pay for a new sensor and 60% of labour costs. I am a very reasonable and fair man, my offer still stands.

 

Regards

[Ken 10]

Nice to see you have not rolled over and had your belly tickled....

[Stalker 180]

I think after 10 days he shouldn't be asked to tip up anything on a fault like this. Fair enough if it was brakes, suspension, tyres etc.. but a lambda sensor failing 10 days after delivery would not be seen as wear and tear by a Judge.

Just my view. 

 

Is he using a "specialist"? whats the labour rate? Total charge for labour?

 

[sparky 274]

7 minutes ago, Stalker said:

I think after 10 days he shouldn't be asked to tip up anything on a fault like this. Fair enough if it was brakes, suspension, tyres etc.. but a lambda sensor failing 10 days after delivery would not be seen as wear and tear by a Judge.

Just my view. 

 

Is he using a "specialist"? whats the labour rate? Total charge for labour?

 

 

Unless the garage he is staking it too are taking the pee on costings, then I agree. Otherwise, get the car back in and get it fixed.

[justina3 518]

I would also have the car back and fixed myself, each to there own of course.

 

[trade vet 702]

14 minutes ago, justina3 said:

I would also have the car back and fixed myself, each to there own of course.

 

I agree 100%,sounds like a very articulate punter,he might agree to the terms ‘under protest’,then go to small claims court later on.

[whitestone679231 113]

I would be getting it back and repairing it, think if it got nasty it could cost more and sure you could get it repaired cheaper than a private, I know if I bought something retail I wouldn't expect to have big bills 2 week later. Take the pill and move on.

[Stalker 180]

I think you should perhaps send him a box of chocolates and some flowers...

[Tom 164]

10 days is nothing I'd get in back and fix it I'm afraid. Disco 3's are brave! 

[Ocsltd 133]

34 minutes ago, Tom said:

10 days is nothing I'd get in back and fix it I'm afraid. Disco 3's are brave! 

My thoughts exactly. To be fair, he does seem to be quite reasonable and polite, he's not quoting the dreaded CRA15 or being unreasonable asking for his money back etc....

Do the right thing, keep him on side whilst he's being decent and have it repaired..... It could turn ugly quite easily.

Just my 2p worth.

[NOACROSS 414]

I think you're v. lucky not to piss him off with the 60% thing.  I'd have definitely sorted it without cost to him.  Whether that's at his garage or yours.  A less decent bloke would throw the whole car back at you and demand a refund. Maybe I'm too soft but not worth the aggravation, and to be fair, he's right I think.

 

 

[Max Branning 149]

What has been quoted by the guys garage to fix it?

If its reasonable then prob just best to pay, for the sake of the 40% towards the cost of the repair bill it could lead to bad reviews etc so just not worth it.

I do find though when receiving these sorts of email it is best not to respond straight away, take a few hours to think it over, speak to other people and get your head clear with the right thing to do before replying or you can sometimes aggravate the situation further.

 

[Ocsltd 133]

2 minutes ago, Max Branning said:

What has been quoted by the guys garage to fix it?

If its reasonable then prob just best to pay, for the sake of the 40% towards the cost of the repair bill it could lead to bad reviews etc so just not worth it.

I do find though when receiving these sorts of email it is best not to respond straight away, take a few hours to think it over, speak to other people and get your head clear with the right thing to do before replying or you can sometimes aggravate the situation further.

 

This.

[Pip 12]

5 hours ago, Arfur Dealy said:

Sold a Disco 3  28-12 which has had a Lambda sensor failure 10 days later. I offered to pay for the sensor and 60% labour costs (apparantly the gearbox has to be dropped). He happily agrees...

I just got this email.

Hi Simon

 

We spoke on the phone this Monday following a fault on the discovery I purchased from you. At the time you kindly offered to pay for the parts required and 60% of the labour costs as a “goodwill gesture”. Since then on the advice of our local garage we have taken advice on the procedures in circumstances such as these. Firstly, we are not doubting your integrity here. The vehicle was purchased for over £5000 in good faith on the understanding that it was in good working order. Unfortunately, it was unable to get us from A to B on two occasions less than two weeks from purchase, due to a fault, not wear and tear. Under these circumstances we have been advised that you should cover the full costs of the repairs and that it should not be a negotiable issue. Simon, we would never buy a used vehicle privately which is why we came to you. We hate awkward situations such as these and hope that you will agree to these terms. I look forward to hearing from you in due course. Please let me know if you require an estimate from our local garage. Regards

My Response

 

Hi James,

 

I am afraid the garage have given you bad information. Having carried out appropriate and recorded pre-sale checks, including an independent PDI check, I am completely confident the vehicle was of satisfactory quality at the point of sale and thus in full conformity to the statute and contract. 

The Consumer Rights Act 2015 is designed to protect buyers and sellers equally. The CRA specifically does not cover maintenance nor faults which would be expected due to the age / mileage & subsequent appropriate wear n tear. You purchased an 11 year old vehicle, which was 8 years past the period of which the Manufacturer was prepared to warrant the condition. A sensor failing on an 11 year old vehicle is quite simply wear n tear.

Out of goodwill and to be completely gentlemanly, I offered to pay for a new sensor and 60% of labour costs. I am a very reasonable and fair man, my offer still stands.

 

 

 

Regards

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but you are on a lose lose situation. I have been trading since 1995 so am use to a few of these problems arising from time to time.

I have had friends in the trade who have stood their ground and ended up in the small claims court. Never have they come out on top. I would get it fixed and keep it friendly and who knows he may be a repeat customer.

My advice is to take it on the chin and move on. Not worth risking bad publicity from social media. Fill it up with BP ultimate and give it a good 50 mile run. This has worked for me before. I have also run a diagnostic check which has come up as 02 sensor which I have erased and it's never come back on. 

Best of luck and I hope it's works out for you.

[Rory RSC 596]

Do you offer any warranty with the cars Simon?

 

I would be covering the cost in full but in house generally as we have our own workshop. 

[Arfur Dealy 823]

Hi guys, thanks for all your feedback  I thought you would be a little more on my side to be fair......

Rory, I don't offer a warranty and don't have my own workshop. I am a member of lawgistics and use their PDI sheets & Purchase Receipts stating the car must be returned for an statutory repair. However, he is 100 miles away and it makes no sense making him have the inconvenience to return it for me to have it inspected / diagnosed / confirm the sensor has failed on an 11 year old monster mileage DISCO 3, at the end of the day it's wear n tear in my book for which I'm not responsible. 

I did explain the above to him, but as a gesture of goodwill I would pay for the part and 60% of the labour. He thanked me over the phone for not making him jump through hoops and return it. Subsequently he has had bad advise from the garage and that's why he sent that email.

Anyways, its all sorted........ He responded immediately with the following...

Hi Simon

Thank you for your prompt response. We are satisfied that we explored this further as advised and are happy to take you up on your offer. The work is being carried out next Wednesday. I will email you a copy of their bill. Will you want to reimburse me or pay them directly?

Regards

[NOACROSS 414]

Wow. You're lucky this time old chap!

I don't know how you can sell a car in this day and age without a warranty, as the customers have all the rights and protections in the world -and all of us are shackled to a six month 'duty of care' etc under the law as far as I understand it. Just because you say no warranty, makes little to no difference. 

If Lawjaw are listening, they will maybe quote it exactly.

Anyway- I'm pleased for you, honest.  

[grant8064 219]

9 minutes ago, Arfur Dealy said:

Hi guys, thanks for all your feedback  I thought you would be a little more on my side to be fair......

Rory, I don't offer a warranty and don't have my own workshop. I am a member of lawgistics and use their PDI sheets & Purchase Receipts stating the car must be returned for an statutory repair. However, he is 100 miles away and it makes no sense making him have the inconvenience to return it for me to have it inspected / diagnosed / confirm the sensor has failed on an 11 year old monster mileage DISCO 3, at the end of the day it's wear n tear in my book for which I'm not responsible. 

I did explain the above to him, but as a gesture of goodwill I would pay for the part and 60% of the labour. He thanked me over the phone for not making him jump through hoops and return it. Subsequently he has had bad advise from the garage and that's why he sent that email.

Anyways, its all sorted........ He responded immediately with the following...

Hi Simon

 

Thank you for your prompt response. We are satisfied that we explored this further as advised and are happy to take you up on your offer. The work is being carried out next Wednesday. I will email you a copy of their bill. Will you want to reimburse me or pay them directly?

Regards

I assume you've checked the garage isn't owned by someone with the same surname as him and received a fixed quote already right?

Surprised he's being so compliant but maybe i'm being overly suspicious. 

Just done £900 in fixes on a 5k Audi and they still complain because the rubber door seal has some signs of wear...funny that on a 8 year old 90k car. Sometimes I hate people.

[Stalker 180]

Yes you have done well to get a bit of money out of the customer.

 

Can you share the labour fees with us?

[Arfur Dealy 823]

1 minute ago, grant8064 said:

I assume you've checked the garage isn't owned by someone with the same surname as him and received a fixed quote already right?

Surprised he's being so compliant but maybe i'm being overly suspicious. 

Just done £900 in fixes on a 5k Audi and they still complain because the rubber door seal has some signs of wear...funny that on a 8 year old 90k car. Sometimes I hate people.

Grant, the thing is I am so busy at the moment I just don't have the spare time to mess around. I make decisions and stand by them.

4 minutes ago, Stalker said:

Yes you have done well to get a bit of money out of the customer.

 

Can you share the labour fees with us?

Stalker, I have no idea whats its going to cost, I have been paying so many large bills in the last month its like on the ropes waving a white flag....

[Stalker 180]

6 minutes ago, Arfur Dealy said:

Grant, the thing is I am so busy at the moment I just don't have the spare time to mess around. I make decisions and stand by them.

Stalker, I have no idea whats its going to cost, I have been paying so many large bills in the last month its like on the ropes waving a white flag....

I wouldn't authorise 60% of anything unless i knew the full price

 

Ill take that as a lot of money...

[Arfur Dealy 823]

Stalker. At the end of the day, if the garage need to drop the gearbox to replaced the sensor it simply has to be done. Because I do not offer a warranty, each year I save £200 per car for repairs. It pays for our two family holidays abroad each year and the static at Newquay..... When I get a warranty / CRA issue as above, I don't have the time nor the inclination to mess about. Life is too short.

[Arfur Dealy 823]

59 minutes ago, NOACROSS said:

Wow. You're lucky this time old chap!

I don't know how you can sell a car in this day and age without a warranty, as the customers have all the rights and protections in the world -and all of us are shackled to a six month 'duty of care' etc under the law as far as I understand it. Just because you say no warranty, makes little to no difference. 

If Lawjaw are listening, they will maybe quote it exactly.

Anyway- I'm pleased for you, honest.  

In 30 years I have never sold a warranty. My responsibility is bound by the CRA for which I abide too. If I wanted to sell an insurance policy / warranty I would do. Lawgistics advise on self warranty booklets to save thousands each year, that is exactly my principle but without paying for the booklets. I bend whe I

 have to

[Dealer 54]

I effin hate these types of people, want a new car for used car money. Vehicle gets sent out with all the checks etc and no warning lights, lo and behold a light comes on, who knows when an o2 sensor is going to fail or anything else for that matter. How can the seller be blamed for something that's totally out of their control. I had someone a while back state a turbo had packed in on a 5 series Bmw after approx 3 to 4 days of purchase as they were 3 hours away we swallowed it but I've a sneaky suspicion that he knew a garage owner where he was from who made up a bill and no doubt they split the money between them when I coughed up. Will never fully get rid of these types I'm afraid. Out of interest Simon, how many miles had the disco done (I loathe these cars by the way). 

[grant8064 219]

20 minutes ago, Dealer said:

as they were 3 hours away we swallowed it but I've a sneaky suspicion that he knew a garage owner where he was from who made up a bill and no doubt they split the money between them when I coughed up. Will never fully get rid of these types I'm afraid. 

Agreed. Call me a cynical old bastard but this is always my first thought.

We come pretty close to refusing to sell cars to people over an hours travel away these days. It's always the distance sales that cause grief IMO and aren't worth the hassle anymore. Bad customers because they're either buying purely on price, your vehicle being the cheapest, and therefore can't actually afford to run and maintain it and will be seeking any kind of claim to save a few quid. Or the car is a rare bit and they're travelling because they have high standards and want the best one on the market which is all well and good until they get a bit of buyers remorse two weeks later realising it hasn't changed their sex life, their mates aren't actually that impressed and they suddenly realise it's just an eight year old lump of metal so they start trying to pick fault.

Apologies guys...i'm not loving punters lately.