You won't like this ....but I'm just about to open this can of worms!

[jimreidvehicle 255]

Now I'm just going to get straight to the point. I'm not posting this to offend anyone, however I have noticed over the last few months that more and more questions are appearing on Car Dealer Magazine Forum from small part-time , home traders , asking how to do this and how to do that in the trade, now as I say I'm not meaning to offend anyone especially anyone at Car Dealer Magazine who do police this forum very well, BUT in my view if you have another MAIN employment and only trade on the side then do you think it's ethical that these part timers are asking detailed questions about the trade on this platform and expecting FULLY committed dealers of all sizes to answer them?

Now I know what you are going to say, everyone has to start somewhere, YES, I agree and many people start part time with old cars to see if they like the trade before committing fully, however when some part-timer traders have full time employment and trade on the side with cars priced up to £10,000 with NO intention of giving up their full time work surely that is affecting us full time, fully committed businesses?  I would also like to say that I am more than happy to help, assist or answer any amount of questions from someone who wants to make a go at this great industry , we even run a small mentoring service for these but at some point you have to commit to go full time, either that or you are stealing sales & profit from me and my peers!

As I say hopefully I won't receive abusive phone calls or emails with this, but feel that someone has to say it, because I'm sure there are many who are thinking it!

Jim

[Cornish Guy 45]

Full agree Jim.

What happened to learning the trade by working at a dealership?

 

 

[sparky 274]

Now I'm just going to get straight to the point. I'm not posting this to offend anyone, however I have noticed over the last few months that more and more questions are appearing on Car Dealer Magazine Forum from small part-time , home traders , asking how to do this and how to do that in the trade, now as I say I'm not meaning to offend anyone especially anyone at Car Dealer Magazine who do police this forum very well, BUT in my view if you have another MAIN employment and only trade on the side then do you think it's ethical that these part timers are asking detailed questions about the trade on this platform and expecting FULLY committed dealers of all sizes to answer them?

Now I know what you are going to say, everyone has to start somewhere, YES, I agree and many people start part time with old cars to see if they like the trade before committing fully, however when some part-timer traders have full time employment and trade on the side with cars priced up to £10,000 with NO intention of giving up their full time work surely that is affecting us full time, fully committed businesses?  I would also like to say that I am more than happy to help, assist or answer any amount of questions from someone who wants to make a go at this great industry , we even run a small mentoring service for these but at some point you have to commit to go full time, either that or you are stealing sales & profit from me and my peers!

As I say hopefully I won't receive abusive phone calls or emails with this, but feel that someone has to say it, because I'm sure there are many who are thinking it!

Jim

Well said Jim.

The straw had broke my back this morning and I was midway through a bit of a rant on this very subject until I got dragged off to do some proper work, by that time I had cooled down and probably for the best, you have put it far more eloquently than I could ever have done.

Personally I think they have some bloody cheek asking for advice like butter wouldn't melt, if others want to help that's up to them, but leave me out of it.

[Rory RSC 596]

I am open 7 days a week. I open 08:30 til 7pm monday to Friday, 9-6 Saturday and 10-4 Sunday. I regularly stay late to do deals or have customers pick up cars. I personally work 7 days total last year in 12 months I had 14 days off. I easy do 100 hours a week and have personally experienced great growth through my own hard work and dedication. If you want to play at it and juggle the 9-5 with selling a few cars you are no threat to me. I am open when you are working at your day job. 

Part timer with no/little reviews or online presence is not working hard to maintain the reputation and feedback we/us have gained.  

 

 I tell you what really gets me  annoyed  and it really boils my P!55...Its the faces that are at the auctions running businesses with premises and 10+ cars in stock at any time easily operating beyond the vat threshold who are NOT vat registered. They are direct competition to any of us 'proper/fulltime/legit traders'. They hurt us. And also these are the ones who don't give a hoot about warranty and obligations.

[Max Branning 149]

I am open 7 days a week. I open 08:30 til 7pm monday to Friday, 9-6 Saturday and 10-4 Sunday. I regularly stay late to do deals or have customers pick up cars. I personally work 7 days total last year in 12 months I had 14 days off. I easy do 100 hours a week and have personally experienced great growth through my own hard work and dedication. If you want to play at it and juggle the 9-5 with selling a few cars you are no threat to me. I am open when you are working at your day job. 

Part timer with no/little reviews or online presence is not working hard to maintain the reputation and feedback we/us have gained.  

 

 I tell you what really gets me  annoyed  and it really boils my P!55...Its the faces that are at the auctions running businesses with premises and 10+ cars in stock at any time easily operating beyond the vat threshold who are NOT vat registered. They are direct competition to any of us 'proper/fulltime/legit traders'. They hurt us. And also these are the ones who don't give a hoot about warranty and obligations.

Exactly...So why do the auction houses allow it? obviously because they are out for every penny and do not give a damn who buys the cars. I have said before on another thread that i do not see how a "private" buyer can go along to a trade auction ie sold as seen and legitimately  buy a car and then get in it and drive down the motorway. Just does not seem realistic these days.

[metcars 397]

 

Exactly...So why do the auction houses allow it? obviously because they are out for every penny and do not give a damn who buys the cars. I have said before on another thread that i do not see how a "private" buyer can go along to a trade auction ie sold as seen and legitimately  buy a car and then get in it and drive down the motorway. Just does not seem realistic these days.

Because there's no such thing as 'trade' auction any more. Everyone is 'trade' nowadays, everyone wants to pay wholesale price; its a thing! costco and Makro are also booming, same issue. Sadly buying 'trade/wholesale' is no longer a secret society

[Wheelerdealer1 91]

Well I'm happy to screen shot the many many PMs I have from such traders, in fact I'm not going to call them traders they are chancers, and they do hurt our bottom line believe me.

but what can we do?

can we have a closed forum for certain discussions? I really don't know

[c_cars 56]

100% with everything said here by Jim and the more 'recognised' faces.

Have frequented here a lot less lately due to the questions being asked, the kind of questions that 15+ years in the trade I've had to work hard to find the answers to.. 

Just waiting for GGs input on all this

* Edit, how about a closed forum for us bonafide dealers, maybe something that requires say a VAT number to use? *

Edited January 15, 2016 by Chris

[Max Branning 149]

Because there's no such thing as 'trade' auction any more. Everyone is 'trade' nowadays, everyone wants to pay wholesale price; its a thing! costco and Makro are also booming, same issue. Sadly buying 'trade/wholesale' is no longer a secret society

But car auctions as we know do not adhere to any sale of goods act. They can legally sell a deathtrap to anyone who wants to buy it. As legitimate motor traders we accept this and will expect to prepare the car prior to resale BUT a private buyer is buying the car for himself to use. Also the bandit traders that are resident at the auctions will happily buy these vehicles then resell them without any preparation. 

Making the auctions VAT reg traders only would cut out these problems. The only problem is it will cut down on the deathtraps that the auction can legally sell on so somebody will be stuck with them or they will need to be scrapped.

100% with everything said here by Jim and the more 'recognised' faces.

Have frequented here a lot less lately due to the questions being asked, the kind of questions that 15+ years in the trade I've had to work hard to find the answers to.. 

Just waiting for GGs input on all this

* Edit, how about a closed forum for us bonafide dealers, maybe something that requires say a VAT number to use? *

Excellent idea

[It's me 615]

i would suggest if you dont want to give the secrets youve built up to make your business a success then dont,i used to freely give information away that i had accrued over years of trading now i think before i speak and see if theres a dollar in the outcome for me,thats how i now retail and i carry it here im always happy to help anyone but i never let them pick my brains clean

 

we all have to start somewhere i certainly never got a grounding in a dealership as its not somewhere i wanted to work

[umesh 336]

As Jim's already pointed out ! we're all here to help new kids on the block ! but Full time job and dabbling is talking food from our mouths ! 

[metcars 397]

I suppose its up to car dealer magazine to decide if they are going to encourage start ups and offer advice and support or pull up the metaphorical ladder?

[Wheelerdealer1 91]

This is more about giving away trade knowledge to chancers then pulling up the ladder

[GreenGiant 287]

Just waiting for GGs input on all this

I heard that....

 

As Jim's already pointed out ! we're all here to help new kids on the block ! but Full time job and dabbling is talking food from our mouths ! 

Hmmmmm.

Difficult to know where you draw the line though, isn't it? So you (we) don't mind helping, as long as it's not helping too much. I'm not saying that is wrong, but there's a morality issue that certainly does need thinking about.

Everyone is 'trade' nowadays, everyone wants to pay wholesale price; its a thing! costco and Makro are also booming, same issue. Sadly buying 'trade/wholesale' is no longer a secret society

Correct. it's the VoucherCode Generation. Had a discussion this week with someone after one of our cars. Long story short: wanted to buy ours at a big discount, sell me his old klunker at Retail, and not come back for servicing, MoT etc. He got a bit peeved when I said i'd rather keep mine and sell it to someone local and reasonable.

A question for all (and this may go off-topic and need another thread, but it is kind of relevant):

What do you do with your non-retail part exchanges?

Have you thought about where they end up and how much of the 'home-trader' problem is, in fact, of your own making? Albeit indirectly?

[metcars 397]

The only problem is it will cut down on the deathtraps that the auction can legally sell on so somebody will be stuck with them or they will need to be scrapped.

Which is exactly why the auction houses dont want to return to the 'bad old days' when they had to dance to the tune of the motor trade.

'home-trader' problem?

I'm a 'home trader', what's the problem? Or are we all being tarred with being illegal traders now, regardless...

[GreenGiant 287]

Fair point, well made, I apologise.

Delete 'home' and add 'illegal'

[jimreidvehicle 255]

i would suggest if you dont want to give the secrets youve built up to make your business a success then dont,i used to freely give information away that i had accrued over years of trading now i think before i speak and see if theres a dollar in the outcome for me,thats how i now retail and i carry it here im always happy to help anyone but i never let them pick my brains clean

 

we all have to start somewhere i certainly never got a grounding in a dealership as its not somewhere i wanted to work

No that's not what I mean< i'm the first in the queue to help anyone with anything if I think I can , however when we have someone on the Forum who openly admits that they are not a VAT registered dealer dealing with £10k cars , please tell me how that works, so there we have it, I've been 30 years in the trade the last 13 years on my own and now have 12 employees and if someone can tell me how I can pay no vat (legally) please fire away.........but I won'y hold my breath!

The point I was trying to make is this, Auctions shouldn't dictate to the Dealers it should be the other way round, however now they are so big they have complete control , taking more and more profit opportunity away from each of us by pushing up prices by inviting everyone and their dog in to purchase cars. Getting stock has always been hard and now getting harder but unless you are a VAT registered trader with a traders licence , let that be trade to trade or trade to retail , these are the ONLY people who should be allowed to trade and gain info in forums like this. As I already said, I'm happy to take on a mentoring role as I already do with anyone who wants to make this industry their business , living and career, but if you are 'in it to wing it' move on!

[Steve92 80]

Non retail cars .... They go on gumtree, they are mot'd and road legal and sold with a warranty.

VAT and home traders, well if your not going to hit the VAT threshold then why would you want to go through the pain in becoming VAT registered.

i've collected a couple of cars this last week and most of them have given up on trade to retail and become trade to trade. So far I've only come across one person pretending to be private but actually being a trader. I didn't buy it and walked away.

as for me and my background, I started off with a mechanical apprenticeship then 6 years mechanical engineering followed by a move into purchasing with an engineering company, then staying in purchasing but moving to a charity and managing the warehouse and returns as well as the fleet.

i love cars, always have and for the last 9 months I've been working in the car trade, be that cleaning, selling, paperwork, viewing and collecting across the uk to painting and decorating our new lockup. There are two of us and even though it's not my business I treat it exactly as if it was. 

So for me never being in the trade it helps reading about and being able to ask questions and receiving helpful advice from others that have grown up in the trade.

[jimreidvehicle 255]

Non retail cars .... They go on gumtree, they are mot'd and road legal and sold with a warranty.

VAT and home traders, well if your not going to hit the VAT threshold then why would you want to go through the pain in becoming VAT registered.

i've collected a couple of cars this last week and most of them have given up on trade to retail and become trade to trade. So far I've only come across one person pretending to be private but actually being a trader. I didn't buy it and walked away.

as for me and my background, I started off with a mechanical apprenticeship then 6 years mechanical engineering followed by a move into purchasing with an engineering company, then staying in purchasing but moving to a charity and managing the warehouse and returns as well as the fleet.

i love cars, always have and for the last 9 months I've been working in the car trade, be that cleaning, selling, paperwork, viewing and collecting across the uk to painting and decorating our new lockup. There are two of us and even though it's not my business I treat it exactly as if it was. 

So for me never being in the trade it helps reading about and being able to ask questions and receiving helpful advice from others that have grown up in the trade.

Steve and this is exactly the reason why this Forum and our Forum has started up, to help discuss issues and problems in the trade and help each other, however for me you have to fully commit to a 'trade' to be part of it! IMHO

[Reggaj 12]

The guy asked a question on an open forum, a home trader, sells cars with a warranty, stays under the vat threshold, and pays his taxes etc from that income, also has a full time job and pays his his taxes and ni contributions from that I would imagine, Just a thought, but could he maybe only sell a couple of cars a year and keep his full time job that he may earn a decent wage from.... Don't really see what the issue with him is, I trade from home part time , pay my due taxes and dont pay vat because I've never hit the threshold or want to volunteer for it, absolutely nothing illegal about it, as for "having to commit to the trade to be part of it" at the moment I earn a decent wage doing what I do so won't be giving it up just yet... 

[Wheelerdealer1 91]

Reggaj it sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it to me, and niether yourself or skmotors have answered the questions how many cars do you sell and how do you keep under the threshold?

Ive sold 2 range rovers and a Prius this month alone, another few months of that and if I wa a fresh business then tell me how I would avoid paying Vat and margin

 

do you even know how the margin scheme works ?

[jimreidvehicle 255]

The guy asked a question on an open forum, a home trader, sells cars with a warranty, stays under the vat threshold, and pays his taxes etc from that income, also has a full time job and pays his his taxes and ni contributions from that I would imagine, Just a thought, but could he maybe only sell a couple of cars a year and keep his full time job that he may earn a decent wage from.... Don't really see what the issue with him is, I trade from home part time , pay my due taxes and dont pay vat because I've never hit the threshold or want to volunteer for it, absolutely nothing illegal about it, as for "having to commit to the trade to be part of it" at the moment I earn a decent wage doing what I do so won't be giving it up just yet... 

yes, I agree it is an open Forum however the name of the forum 'Car Dealer' kind of gives it away! You are also right, if you are paying your taxes and dues , looking after your customers, preparing the cars you sell to the highest standard ,'treating customers fairly' offering them the highest customer care at all times , ensuring that you repair cars if they come back with a problem and running your 'part time' business under the Consumer Rights regulations, and hold down a full time job, then congratulations you are a better man than me! 

In my personal view 'commitment' is exactly that, ensuring that you do what you need to do to make it work for you and your employees and customers, after all they are the reason you are in business! A bit like 'marriage' which is another commitment, you make sure that you love, support and do the best for your spouse, all the time(full time) , because successful marriages don't have another part time wife on the side.

As I said at the beginning this post was not to offend but to vent my views and yes it was down to the chat openly admitting he was not vat registered on here, which unless he can clarify on the forum why he needs even more stock when he (in your words) only sells a couple of cars a year is beyond me!

[Jack Regan 116]

I've got a part time wife , but the full time one don't know about her.

[Reggaj 12]

Reggaj it sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it to me, and niether yourself or skmotors have answered the questions how many cars do you sell and how do you keep under the threshold?

Ive sold 2 range rovers and a Prius this month alone, another few months of that and if I wa a fresh business then tell me how I would avoid paying Vat and margin

 

do you even know how the margin scheme works ?

Wind your neck in a tad fella, to answer your questions, i trade enough units to stay under the vat threshold and that's how it will stay for the time being, and yes I completely understand how the margin scheme works.

[James Bush 95]

I used to visit this forum a fair bit but like others have become increasingly frustrated with the amount of very basic questions being asked which don't have a place on a "car dealer" forum. 

My mind boggles how part time dealer/traders do it along side a full time job? When do you find time to source stock, collect stock, prep stock, photo and advertise the stock, respond to enquiries, meet customers, deal with warranty/post sale issues, dispose of part exchanges, do the paperwork, do the banking, file your tax returns etc????

Also how do you stay under the VAT threshold? Couple of cars a month, the odd px a month, prep bills paid, advertising bills paid and you're at the threshold.

I've nothing against professional home traders/dealers, it's how I started, gave up work and started full time, but I just don't understand how you can claim to be a bonified, professional trader/dealer while holding down another full time job? I struggled doing it full time and quickly opened up a indoor showroom, no car supermarket glass palace but I'm proud of it.

You do need planning permission to retail cars from home, and as I found councils are very reluctant to grant it, you need public liability insurance, you need understanding neighbours etc

So good luck if you're "getting away with it" and enjoy it while you can because eventually the planning department, vat man, tax man, annoyed neighbour, upset customer who'll be happy to drop you in it with them all will catch you out one day.