Here’s how to avoid SOGA and make money selling cars

[Wheelerdealer1 91]

So www.binca.co.uk the owner is also YouTuber calvinscardiary.com, how exactly are they getting away with selling cars like this ?

 

 If you don’t know he basically retails his cars as a buy it now car auction, therefore by passing all the usual SOGA laws of selling a vehicle, he still does px and his prices are close to retail. 

 

As far as I can tell the business is registered as car sales. So what’s stopping us putting our px shitters through as a buy it now trade car auctions? Or is he just lucky the local Milton Keynes tradings standards office is clueless! Opinions welcome

 

Have a read of his terms and conditions, one in particular-

 

 

All of our vehicles are HPI checked.

We accept all major debit and credit cards.

 

We are not a retail car sales, all of our vehicles are sold on trade to trade auction terms and everyone who purchases one of our cars will be signing to agree that they are in the motor trade or have sufficient knowledge of the vehicle to buy it on trade terms. 

 

 

[Casper 272]

Calvin owns a few business models he owns the car buying shop as well a long with his brother which he was offering franchises for also a clothing brand naff co and binca also has a retail site as well as the auction one

I guess its similar to a lot of traders on ebay selling with no warranty px etc I've seen a few do this i suppose 

unsure of the how it would work though if some one paid 5k for a car and it went bang . 

As i would think although no warranty is offered sales of goods act would still apply .. 

 

[trade vet 704]

It looks OK to me.All their T&C’s are clear and easy to understand.Key to this is that buyers must sign a declaration form confirming that they are in the motor trade.

[Casper 272]

22 minutes ago, trade vet said:

It looks OK to me.All their T&C’s are clear and easy to understand.Key to this is that buyers must sign a declaration form confirming that they are in the motor trade.

I think when you think of it you will be right trade-vet if the terms and conditions are clearly displayed and customers signed a declaration there is less if any chance of comebacks . Although im not sure i get from a customers point they know what there getting but would every customer see it like that .and if push to shove could probably bring in the consumer credit act and trading standards at the very least i would freshly mot all stock .   

Edited April 18, 2020 by Casper

[New year revolutions...... 197]

16 minutes ago, trade vet said:

It looks OK to me.

https://www.businesscompanion.info/focus/car-traders/part-complying-consumer-protection-unfair-trading-regulations-2008-cprs

 

Mm

 

[metcars 397]

I actually feel sorry for Milton Keynes trading standards?

[New year revolutions...... 197]

1 minute ago, metcars said:

I actually feel sorry for Milton Keynes trading standards?

I think they must be very weak personally

[Highlinev8 28]

I'd love to hear lawgistics take on their T&Cs.

As far as I was aware it doesn't matter what I get them to sign or how I phrase the ad, Joe Public is always Joe Public and I am always a car dealer so consumer rights apply.

The only way this could stand was if the website was only accessible by the trade who had proven their trade credentials to be a member. This is a website that anyone can jump on.

Anyway if they run a good business and customers are happy well and good but I wouldn't like to be testing the model in court.

 

 

[Casper 272]

6 minutes ago, Highlinev8 said:

I'd love to hear lawgistics take on their T&Cs.

As far as I was aware it doesn't matter what I get them to sign or how I phrase the ad, Joe Public is always Joe Public and I am always a car dealer so consumer rights apply.

The only way this could stand was if the website was only accessible by the trade who had proven their trade credentials to be a member. This is a website that anyone can jump on.

Anyway if they run a good business and customers are happy well and good but I wouldn't like to be testing the model in court.

 

 

 I think all the business model does is limit the chances as you say joe public will always be seen as joe public by the courts regardless if the car is sold as seen or marked on the invoice etc  and car dealer as car dealer if in the trade 

Although i think trade vet is right also if the terms and conditions are displayed .on the walls and invoices and a customer signs an invoice then its a grey area 

Edited April 18, 2020 by Casper

[metcars 397]

8 minutes ago, New year revolutions...... said:

I think they must be very weak personally

Collapsing under the strain?

[Autolink100 34]

I guess anyone can call themselves an auction if they want to can't they? BCA get away with dealing with the public without the SOGA getting in the way and they run online auctions. It's an interesting concept and I'm guessing that if TS were not happy with it they would have shut him down long ago

[Lazz 16]

I'd say good luck to them, you must remember as a private buyer you can walk into a bca auction and just buy without proving anything, as long as you have the money you are good to go.

[metcars 397]

1 minute ago, Autolink100 said:

I guess anyone can call themselves an auction if they want to can't they? BCA get away with dealing with the public without the SOGA getting in the way and they run online auctions. It's an interesting concept and I'm guessing that if TS were not happy with it they would have shut him down long ago

I always understood BCA are acting as an agent or facilitator rather than a seller. Same as an estate agent. The grey area for me is guys selling cars on eBay by auction?

[awc1000 93]

1 minute ago, metcars said:

I always understood BCA are acting as an agent or facilitator rather than a seller. Same as an estate agent. The grey area for me is guys selling cars on eBay by auction?

yes, but i would imagine calvin is clever enough to swerve this by claiming he is the agent, his buying arm (mostly main agent) will be one company, his binca arm selling online at fixed price will just be an appointed agent to sell from the other arm - hence its an auction if the company selling the goods don't own them.

the terms and conditions may be water tight but with the prices asked its certainly not the trade buying the cars, on a positive at least he's not selling shite like the other team who have this scale model who trade out of reading / ebay.

[Paul C 75]

26 minutes ago, Autolink100 said:

I guess anyone can call themselves an auction if they want to can't they? BCA get away with dealing with the public without the SOGA getting in the way and they run online auctions. It's an interesting concept and I'm guessing that if TS were not happy with it they would have shut him down long ago

BCA's online auctions are not accessible by the general public - you need a trade account (and prove credentials) to bid online. Thus, they legitimately don't need to comply with that aspect of SOGA.

[trade vet 704]

40 minutes ago, New year revolutions...... said:

https://www.businesscompanion.info/focus/car-traders/part-complying-consumer-protection-unfair-trading-regulations-2008-cprs

 

Mm

 

Having scanned that,it still looks OK to me.I had a case where a guy claimed to have a garage repair business so we discounted and marked the invoice ‘trade sale ‘ etc.He then claimed for various work and took us to court.The judge said I was negligent for not getting a signed ‘ in the trade’ declaration so we lost.

[Casper 272]

9 minutes ago, trade vet said:

Having scanned that,it still looks OK to me.I had a case where a guy claimed to have a garage repair business so we discounted and marked the invoice ‘trade sale ‘ etc.He then claimed for various work and took us to court.The judge said I was negligent for not getting a signed ‘ in the trade’ declaration so we lost.

Everyday is a school day to us all 

[Paul C 75]

Are buyers that stupid? (Okay, I know "a fool and their cash are easily parted").

Retail sale ==> retail price, and all the things that come with it (like px, test drive, prep, finance, return, warranty etc)

Trade sale ==> trade price

Sure there's a legitimate minority of the GP who are happy to buy on trade terms, but they'd go to an auction and stick their hand in the air. I am not convinced there are that many people who would accept trade terms but pay retail. I know there's a subset of 'benefits' still available such as better viewing of the car than at an auction, px. Were they offering test drives?

I suspect, if ever a case got to court the "trade terms" would fail the duck test. I know others want sight of trade insurance policy or similar.

[New year revolutions...... 197]

12 minutes ago, trade vet said:

Having scanned that,it still looks OK to me.I had a case where a guy claimed to have a garage repair business so we discounted and marked the invoice ‘trade sale ‘ etc.He then claimed for various work and took us to court.The judge said I was negligent for not getting a signed ‘ in the trade’ declaration so we lost.

As a trading standards officer I would ask the following

Why are you selling these cars this way when you also have a normal sales pitch

Why are your full term and conditions not posted on your website

Quote-------All Vehicles are sold as seen on trade terms, exactly as they would be at any other auction. The sales invoice will show further info regarding the terms of sale.
Every buyer will be asked to read and sign a 'trade sale' invoice upon purchase.------unquote

 

[trade vet 704]

4 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Are buyers that stupid? (Okay, I know "a fool and their cash are easily parted").

Retail sale ==> retail price, and all the things that come with it (like px, test drive, prep, finance, return, warranty etc)

Trade sale ==> trade price

Sure there's a legitimate minority of the GP who are happy to buy on trade terms, but they'd go to an auction and stick their hand in the air. I am not convinced there are that many people who would accept trade terms but pay retail. I know there's a subset of 'benefits' still available such as better viewing of the car than at an auction, px. Were they offering test drives?

I suspect, if ever a case got to court the "trade terms" would fail the duck test. I know others want sight of trade insurance policy or similar.

Good point.However private buyers do have consumer rights when buying at auctions like BCA.

[BHM 994]

3 hours ago, Highlinev8 said:

The only way this could stand was if the website was only accessible by the trade who had proven their trade credentials to be a member. This is a website that anyone can jump on.

Absolutely. Many years ago in the early days of eBay (and the early days of me doing a bit of part-time trading) I was knocking out plenty under the usual ‘No Warranty, spares or repair’ game. Some auctions, some classified ads. Everyone happily signing their rights away for a cheap car, everyone clearly knew what they were getting, or more importantly what they weren’t getting (comeback), no complaints, all straight forward & above board.........until one day in a January the local TS called me in. Their head man had been looking for a car, came across my adverts & nearly choked on his Xmas mince pie!

However the one thing that torpedoed my argument at the time was.......eBay is fully accessible to members of the public, it is a public auction/sales website. 

They explained the whole spares/repair trailered away ‘thing’ and made it clear it must be fully included in the advert. At the time I asked about private punters signing their rights away as traders, TS said obviously if I was openly touting as such I’d clearly be in breach of such & such regulations (saying because it was blatantly a load of bollocks trying to get around consumer rights). All fair comments really.

After saying all of that, it only takes 2 minutes looking on Facebook to find some  dodgy bastard misselling trade cars but they appear to operate unhindered by any Trading Standards Dept. From what I see FB is as bad as eBay ever was.

[metcars 397]

2 hours ago, trade vet said:

Good point.However private buyers do have consumer rights when buying at auctions like BCA.

Really, in what respect?

[trade vet 704]

18 minutes ago, metcars said:

Really, in what respect?

Case history involving a close friend proving private buyers at auctions have consumer rights.He bought a cheapie from the fleet section at our local BCA or ADT whatever it was called then.It had an engineers report on the screen.He then just reentered it in the next sale after paying for it without touching it.I often did the same.The same engineers report and vehicle description remained on the screen and the only difference was the lot no.It then sold and he made a small profit.A few days later BCA asked him permission to refund the private buyer and cancel the sale.He refused and Trading Standards then got involved,there was an independent inspection and the cheapie was declared unroadworthy.He was prosecuted and fined and with legal fees it cost him about £1500,a write up in the local paper and I don’t think he got the car back.

[Casper 272]

10 minutes ago, trade vet said:

Case history involving a close friend proving private buyers at auctions have consumer rights.He bought a cheapie from the fleet section at our local BCA or ADT whatever it was called then.It had an engineers report on the screen.He then just reentered it in the next sale after paying for it without touching it.I often did the same.The same engineers report and vehicle description remained on the screen and the only difference was the lot no.It then sold and he made a small profit.A few days later BCA asked him permission to refund the private buyer and cancel the sale.He refused and Trading Standards then got involved,there was an independent inspection and the cheapie was declared unroadworthy.He was prosecuted and fined and with legal fees it cost him about £1500,a write up in the local paper and I don’t think he got the car back.

Thats not so good poor guy just trying to put food on the table doing nothing different from probably any one of us on here have done or would do . And rightly or wrongly a write up in a local paper like that isn't going to do any of us any favours .

I've seem similar things happen to what are genuine honest traders the thing thats maddens me is nothing ever seems to happen to the ones that are not .

Edited April 18, 2020 by Casper

[metcars 397]

16 minutes ago, trade vet said:

Case history involving a close friend proving private buyers at auctions have consumer rights.He bought a cheapie from the fleet section at our local BCA or ADT whatever it was called then.It had an engineers report on the screen.He then just reentered it in the next sale after paying for it without touching it.I often did the same.The same engineers report and vehicle description remained on the screen and the only difference was the lot no.It then sold and he made a small profit.A few days later BCA asked him permission to refund the private buyer and cancel the sale.He refused and Trading Standards then got involved,there was an independent inspection and the cheapie was declared unroadworthy.He was prosecuted and fined and with legal fees it cost him about £1500,a write up in the local paper and I don’t think he got the car back.

Back in the day I knew a couple of guys that had a little business buying main dealer px from one auction and driving them to sell in another with the stuff still on the screens. They got away with it for a while? Just out of interest was your friend ‘trade’ with a trade buyers account? And did your friend have a trade selling account too? Or did he just re enter as private seller?