Rejecting car after work has been carried out

[metcars 394]

5 minutes ago, Arfur Dealy said:

TV, did you miss....

The invoice for the car stated ‘sold as seen without guarantee or warranty’, you cannot write that on a business invoice. 
 

You cannot dissolve a consumers rights. 

My brother in law runs a cleaning business, with a Renault van in his company name, when he sells the van will he have to guarantee it?

 

[Roweco 0]

Lots to consider here, I think I’ll try to get him to make his case and go from there. He hasn’t actually said what he wants yet so that’s probably the first port of call. 

I get get the impression offering him a refund for the initial transaction is probably the fair route while ignoring the work he had done outside of my control.

I get the impression he wants to keep the car but wants it like new so this will give him something to consider. Plus it shows willing to fulfil my obligations as a business if he does take me to court.

[Dealer1 0]

If you refund him ( I would 100%, as you will all ways own that car)

he could also make you collect the Audi from him at your cost and ask you for his service cost back that he has all ready spent on the Audi  (any good lawyer will know this)

Do not go to court, as you will 100% loss.  (By the way it is not fair don't get me wrong)    

  ** Welcome to being a car dealer **  

[tradegirl 112]

You're a builder, not a car trader. As far as I'm aware it's a private sale, I don't know why you're entertaining this guy.

[BHM 994]

Chance your arm & just tell him “Look pal, I’m not a car dealer so fuck off & get on with it yourself”.

Feel free to contact me for details of where to send your £100 cheque for the professional advice I’ve imparted.

[David Horgan 564]

An Audi A3 /GOLF , Skoda /SEAT petrol TSI engine has shit timing chain problems , its the tensioners that will let go at some point then the chain jumps on starting and either it rattles its nuts off or shits the engine .Its a known problem . 

The faults you posted are correlating to the chain requiring a change . 

this could have been there after the customer had the service performed , If the garage he used did not fit the correct oil filter it will argevate the chain , if its got the incorrect oil then that will also do the same damage . 

Assuming this chain wasn't faulty when you sold it , then i would assume the servicing garage may have caused the fault . 

Its a coincidence beyond belief to have a chain go two weeks after you sold it , shit does happen buy i would think one of the services has caused this chain issue , could have been your service or the service the customer has had done too . 

If the car has been interfered with by another garage by doing a service then I would point him back to them really . 

We haven't sold a TSI petrol engine without changing the chain , that's how bad they are , 

Make sure if you do agree to the chain replacement that it goes to a specialist as they are not an easy job and disaster can occur on start up , .

Welcome to the motor trade , 

Chains are not covered by 90% of warranty companies though and are considered wear and tear items , However good practise is to change the chain if required or Perform a service Correctly on the TSI Petrols 

The question now is .

A; Did it rattle before you sold it .

B ; Has some fool who serviced it caused this problem , Either your service or his . 

 

IF you sold it private , then tell him to sod off . Simples . 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by David Horgan

[trade vet 697]

2 minutes ago, Arfur Dealy said:

TV, did you miss....

The invoice for the car stated ‘sold as seen without guarantee or warranty’, you cannot write that on a business invoice. 
 

You cannot dissolve a consumers rights. 

I do agree AD and I think anyone operating a business involving the sale of goods would be expected to know that.In this case the seller is a builder ( who doesn’t know that )who has disposed of an item that the business acquired in extraordinary circumstances/ or by default and not during the usual course of business.However,I have absolutely no idea if a small claims court judge would agree with that.

[Roweco 0]

1 minute ago, Dealer1 said:

If you refund him ( I would 100%, as you will all ways own that car)

he could also make you collect the Audi from him at your cost and ask you for his service cost back that he has all ready spent on the Audi  (any good lawyer will know this)

Do not go to court, as you will 100% loss.  (By the way it is not fair don't get me wrong)    

  ** Welcome to being a car dealer **  

 Bare with me here, so hypothetically speaking if he had of got the car painted purple or put some new wheels on it, would I be liable for that as well? After all doing the work wasn’t the difference between the car being fit for purpose or not. The choice to have a car service some 30 miles after being service without consulting me isn’t something I could control - surely the nature of the work has little relevance?

As above am I responsible as a business seller for any customers spending on a vehicle within 30 days as if it goes wrong I will liable for any outgoings they’ve had in the meantime?! 

2 minutes ago, David Horgan said:

An Audi A3 /GOLF , Skoda /SEAT petrol TSI engine has shit timing chain problems , its the tensioners that will let go at some point then the chain jumps on starting and either it rattles its nuts off or shits the engine .Its a known problem . 

The faults you posted are correlating to the chain requiring a change . 

this could have been there after the customer had the service performed , If the garage he used did not fit the correct oil filter it will argevate the chain , if its got the incorrect oil then that will also do the same damage . 

Assuming this chain wasn't faulty when you sold it , then i would assume the servicing garage may have caused the fault . 

Its a coincidence beyond belief to have a chain go two weeks after you sold it , shit does happen buy i would think one of the services has caused this chain issue , could have been your service or the service the customer has had done too . 

If the car has been interfered with by another garage by doing a service then I would point him back to them really . 

We haven't sold a TSI petrol engine without changing the chain , that's how bad they are , 

Make sure if you do agree to the chain replacement that it goes to a specialist as they are not an easy job and disaster can occur on start up , .

Welcome to the motor trade , 

Chains are not covered by 90% of warranty companies though and are considered wear and tear items , However good practise is to change the chain if required or Perform a service Correctly on the TSI Petrols 

The question now is .

A; Did it rattle before you sold it .

B ; Has some fool who serviced it caused this problem , Either your service or his . 

 

 

 

Hi David,

This is great. You obviously have a lot of knowledge and I really appreciate your input. 

The car was not rattling prior to sale, he had no issues (other than it running out of fuel) until after he had the service work carried out. 

Possibly, he used a local garage of which I’ve looked up. Old school mot centre which he seems to trust with his life. (They or it needed a service, was charged £550 for the pleasure) not RAC approved or anything else from what I can see. 

[J.T 39]

3 hours ago, Roweco said:

The car is a 2009 petrol Audi A3 with 103,000 miles, 4 months MOT which sold for £3400 

My question: 

-Is a timing chain considered fair wear and tear? According to Audi they seem to be lifetime parts although they consider the lifetime of the car to be 8 years or 100,000- 150,000 miles (which it comes in excess of both of these).

-As work has been carried out (Service, potentially not filled up with enough oil etc.) would this void any claim he may have? 

-if I accept the car back should I make a deduction for fair usage? (It was on the 28th day he raised the second round of issues).

-The car was sold at less than the private recommended sale value, trade is £4600 private book price is £4000 (according to a report by Parker’s) so he has realised a massive saving yet hopes to still reap the benefits of buying from a trader, which I’m not.

At a little bit of a loose end, any advice? 

Thanks in advance!!

As others have said welcome to our world, we all feel your pain here brother.

 

[Jack Regan 116]

1 hour ago, tradegirl said:

You're a builder, not a car trader. As far as I'm aware it's a private sale, I don't know why you're entertaining this guy.

+1

[Stalker 180]

At the bottom of the invoice is states an RAC approval number? Has the customer bought a warranty? 

[Roweco 0]

2 hours ago, tradex said:

I need a triple garage and office building if that helps things, you came here for advice and you may get a project out if it

PM me your details, assuming you are Breckland area? 

.....my builder has been abducted by aliens. 

Haha I’m chock-a-block I’m afraid and based in Sudbury, Suffolk so a little far out! 

Very jealous though, triple garage!, car trade can’t be all bad eh.. hahaha

41 minutes ago, Stalker said:

At the bottom of the invoice is states an RAC approval number? Has the customer bought a warranty? 

No, when he came back with more issues I asked him to have an independent RAC report done on the car. (So it was less likely to be a £20 to a mate jobby). 

Thats the report (plus he had a quote done for good measure.)

[David Horgan 564]

14 hours ago, Roweco said:

This is great. You obviously have a lot of knowledge and I really appreciate your input. 

The car was not rattling prior to sale, he had no issues (other than it running out of fuel) until after he had the service work carried out. 

Possibly, he used a local garage of which I’ve looked up. Old school mot centre which he seems to trust with his life. (They or it needed a service, was charged £550 for the pleasure) not RAC approved or anything else from what I can see

Ok so you say the chain was not rattling at 103k , means it must of been changed at some point in its life then .

All 09 /11 TSI engines have chain problems ,

Age and miles are the most obvious signs , rattle on start up is a sign . Lack of oil services is a cause .

If as you say the car was serviced AFTER you sold it this could well be the cause of any chain issues , the VAG oil filters have a one way valve and even they must be fitted correctly or oil starvation is imminent, cheap replicas can and do cause the same problem of oil starvation. 

This in turn will affect the chain and tensioner causing a rattle or even a jump of a tooth .

****Tell this guy it was serviced before it left you "invoice proof i hope " so outside interference " EG his fave garage " is the probable cause of his issues   so its out of your hands . ****

All the best .

 

[Jack Regan 116]

if you laid a patio on the bonnet , built him a barbecue in the boot or the nice pvc guttering you fitted round it has failed in any way then yeh you got to put it right .....

you are not a car dealer as far as i can see, you've already done to much, be polite but firm and jog him on .

[Roweco 0]

1 hour ago, David Horgan said:

Ok so you say the chain was not rattling at 103k , means it must of been changed at some point in its life then .

All 09 /11 TSI engines have chain problems ,

Age and miles are the most obvious signs , rattle on start up is a sign . Lack of oil services is a cause .

If as you say the car was serviced AFTER you sold it this could well be the cause of any chain issues , the VAG oil filters have a one way valve and even they must be fitted correctly or oil starvation is imminent, cheap replicas can and do cause the same problem of oil starvation. 

This in turn will affect the chain and tensioner causing a rattle or even a jump of a tooth .

****Tell this guy it was serviced before it left you "invoice proof i hope " so outside interference " EG his fave garage " is the probable cause of his issues   so its out of your hands . ****

All the best .

 

Thankyou! I will make the point to him.

one final question, i’ve been advise by citizens advice I should get something formal in writing from a professional within the motor trade to state this could be the cause of his issues. 

Do you have any on paper qualification and fancy jotting a few words for some beer money?! Haha 

[Stalker 180]

Can you not just chin him and bury him under an extension/patio your working on?

[Roweco 0]

Just now, Stalker said:

Can you not just chin him and bury him under an extension/patio your working on?

Haha Fred west style, I like it!

[MattR 177]

Well, you learn something every day. I cant see he is entitled to request payment for work he has authorised without your say so. But, with the info given (its not something ive ever thought about before as I only sell cars from my car business), then logically the CRA 2015 does apply as you are a business selling something to a private individual. Bit harsh though.

If he has requested a rejection and refund, then do so if there is a fault with the car. what makes him think the timing chain needs replacing? is it a garage scaring him? Or has he had a warning light come on? He seems determined to get his money off you for the service, is it possible a mate of his with a garage has given an estimate (for work which isnt required) which is roughly double what the customer thinks is what you 'owe'him from the service etc in the hope you'll go 50/50 on this estimate? 

[Mark101 536]

Personally, this screams as a private sale end of story but......

Just to play Devil's Advocate (again); Could you been seen in court as a motor trader?

What do I mean?

You took that car as payment for a building job, or in lieu of cash payment and had no intention of keeping the car and therefore (in a round about way, like us taking a PX) were looking to profit from the proceeds of the sale, maybe (arguably) make more than the building work was worth? You could be seen to be trading a car.... Same as if I took a piece of land in PX against a car I suppose (I have taken some strange things in chop before).

Anyway, you have had a taste of what us Dealers go through on a daily/weekly/monthly basis and I would appreciate you telling all your friends in the pub who say dealers make a fortune and are all dodgy some home truths and that we work bloody hard to do the right thing by people whilst keeping a roof over our heads (that we will pay a builder to repair ) 

Good luck.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Mark101

[Roweco 0]

3 hours ago, MattR said:

Well, you learn something every day. I cant see he is entitled to request payment for work he has authorised without your say so. But, with the info given (its not something ive ever thought about before as I only sell cars from my car business), then logically the CRA 2015 does apply as you are a business selling something to a private individual. Bit harsh though.

If he has requested a rejection and refund, then do so if there is a fault with the car. what makes him think the timing chain needs replacing? is it a garage scaring him? Or has he had a warning light come on? He seems determined to get his money off you for the service, is it possible a mate of his with a garage has given an estimate (for work which isnt required) which is roughly double what the customer thinks is what you 'owe'him from the service etc in the hope you'll go 50/50 on this estimate? 

Unfortunately the diagnosis is correct. I had him take the car to an RAC approved garage and get an independent report. (Somewhere above)

The big point of contention is the work his garage did in the meantime. Obviously they can’t have had much of a clue as they gave it a full service 30 miles after it being serviced. 

I’ve asked him for a full breakdown on the details of the parts fitted. If the parts used weren’t approved for the car or he won’t supply me the information I will contest the rejection on the grounds that this issue wasn’t present until 9 days after having the work carried out by his own garage, which I knew nothing of until after it had been completed. 

I want to fair but equally I don’t want to take on issues someone else has caused. It’s an old high mileage car after all!  

[Arfur Dealy 823]

3 hours ago, Roweco said:

Unfortunately the diagnosis is correct. I had him take the car to an RAC approved garage and get an independent report. (Somewhere above)

The big point of contention is the work his garage did in the meantime. Obviously they can’t have had much of a clue as they gave it a full service 30 miles after it being serviced. 

I’ve asked him for a full breakdown on the details of the parts fitted. If the parts used weren’t approved for the car or he won’t supply me the information I will contest the rejection on the grounds that this issue wasn’t present until 9 days after having the work carried out by his own garage, which I knew nothing of until after it had been completed. 

I want to fair but equally I don’t want to take on issues someone else has caused. It’s an old high mileage car after all!  

The thing is within 30 days, its up to you to prove the faults weren't present at the point of sale, the ownership lies on you.... it isn't the other way around... And you can't prove that. When you play at Car Dealer you cannot retail a vehicle to a consumer (a layman) and dissolve their consumer rights. 

You stated "sold as seen" on an invoice which is breaking the law. Don't dig yourself a very big hole, refund him, get him out of your life and sell it privately with no link to your business. That is "best advise".

Edited December 11, 2019 by Arfur Dealy

[Roweco 0]

24 minutes ago, Arfur Dealy said:

The thing is within 30 days, its up to you to prove the faults weren't present at the point of sale, the ownership lies on you.... it isn't the other way around... And you can't prove that. When you play at Car Dealer you cannot retail a vehicle to a consumer (a layman) and dissolve their consumer rights. 

You stated "sold as seen" on an invoice which is breaking the law. Don't dig yourself a very big hole, refund him, get him out of your life and sell it privately with no link to your business. That is "best advise".

Initially I was honestly of the understanding this was a private sale, I’m not a car dealer so I wasn’t expecting to sell it as if I were. On finding it wasn’t that simple I’m honouring his consumer rights. I have no concern with that as it’s an honest mistake and once bought up to speed I am looking st this as if I’m a dealer.

I accept it is hard for me to prove the issue wasn’t there but I can prove that he’s had work carried out in the meantime which was out of my control.

There’s loads of info out there re the importance of the correct filter being used on these engines and one of first knock on effects is oil starvation. It appears to be a common error made by a number of garages. ‘Looks the same, same size, similar number but has a one way valve built in.’ Shows oil pressure so doesn’t bring the light on. First sign is noise under the bonnet or something else bringing a light on. Which rings all the right bells here. 

I would just take the car back to save the hassle but it’s whats been damaged along the way. For all I know I’m taking a car back that now needs a new engine because someone else has cocked up. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Roweco

[Arfur Dealy 823]

2 minutes ago, Roweco said:

Initially I was honestly of the understanding this was a private sale, I’m not a car dealer so I wasn’t expecting to sell it as if I were. On finding it wasn’t that simple I’m honouring his consumer rights. I have no concern with that as it’s an honest mistake and once bought up to speed I am looking st this as if I’m a dealer.

I accept it is hard for me to prove the issue wasn’t there but I can prove that he’s had work carried out in the meantime which was out of my control.

There’s loads of info out there re the importance of the correct filter being used on these engines and one of first knock on effects is oil starvation. It appears to be a common error made by a number of garages. ‘Looks the same, same size, similar number but has a one way vale built in.’ Shows oil pressure so doesn’t bring the light on. First sign is noise under the bonnet or something else bringing a light on. Which rings all the right bells here. 

I would just take the car back to save the haste but it’s whats been damaged along the way. For all I know I’m taking a car back that now needs a new engine because someone else has cocked up. 

The car came to you through your business as a payment. You then sold it in writing invoicing through your business, it is irrelevant you are a builder.... This is what's goosed you.... If the car wasn't associated to your business and you sold it privately then I'd be telling you to to tell him to jog on, but you've made a fundamental error with using your business invoice to sell it and stating its "sold as seen"..  

Look at it this way...

If I took in a load of used cement mixers and building material as part of a deal through my business and then retailed it to a layman through my business "sold as seen" without warranty blah..... Do you think I can legally do that ? 

[Arfur Dealy 823]

Too add... What you should have done is bought the car yourself from your business at cost, disassociating it from your business and then sold it privately. As a business, you cannot play at car dealer, just like I cannot play at being a builder through my business.... Consumers have rights. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Arfur Dealy

[trade vet 697]

I think Roweco should stand his ground.It appears that the term ‘sold as seen without warranty’ is acceptable in the building industry.For example if you look at Altrad Belle who are national and suppliers to the construction industry.They are advertising plenty of ex demo and used machinery ‘ sold as seen without warranty’.In which case I would like to know how Roweco cannot do the same especially as this car was not his ‘ stock in trade ‘ as is the case with Altrad Belle.