Gesture Goodwill

[MCE 0]

Hi, 

We are small family run independent dealer, been in the Trade over 10 years. Want to share and get some advise on a case we due going to Court.

Customer purchased a 2006 Subaru Impreza with 111,000 miles in Sep 2018 (Yes, 2018). 10 days later she complaint that the vehicle may not pass its future MOT 6 months later and the steering had become stiff. She than confirmed to us the vehicle is for her son who just passed the driving test.

it seem to us that she made a wrong decision buying a 2.0 Subaru for a first time buyer and just want to get out of the vehicle, so we declined her 30 days rejection but as gesture of goodwill we offer to purchase the vehicle back by deducted the used mileage of £130.00. This offer was accepted and a date and time was agreed to return the vehicle, but she didn't turn up, she contact us to say she still waiting the log book so she need to wait for the log book to claim the road tax, we told her we will still provide her the refund without the log book. After her no show, we wrote to her  the next day and said our goodwill offer is now withdrawn because she didn't turn up as agreed.

40 days later, she made contact again, say she is now taking us to Court for the full refund. 
We spoke with a solicitor, he said because we offer to accept the vehicle, the Judge would accept her claim and order us to accept the car again. (no matter it is goodwill offer), as the CRA did not stated when the consumer must return the good. She signed the invoice stated it is her responsibility to return the vehicle but the solicitor said the goodwill offer will deem as we accepted her right to reject from the Judges view.
Is anyone have smaillier experience in Court? 40 days later she provided a "per purchase inspection report" stated the blot had broken on the steering which caused it become stiff. She also confirmed in writing that the steering was normal at the time of sale and only become stiff 5 days later.

We thought we simply offered a solution to end the matter, but we now put ourself in a worst position by doing so. 
Any advise would be appreciated.

Edited October 23, 2019 by MCE

[DigitalAutos 3]

Hi, can't offer any legal advice just an observation. Why has this took a year to get to here. After the initial rejection it would have been wiser for you to chase her for a quick vehicle return. At least then the ball would have been back in her court with nothing more than a few weeks driving to put it behind you. Waiting for her to slip up so you can put your head in the sand has just delayed the inevitable. Now it's a years driving to try and strike a deal on and more hassle.

Think the best course of action with these complaints is to put them to bed early and move on. Some customers aren't worth the stress...

[Casper 272]

Im not 100 percent sure but surely you have offered her a refund with fair usage I think the judge would go in your favour here after all it was her tht refused to return the car to the garage. Best to get some legal advice to confirm good luck

Edited October 23, 2019 by Casper

[MCE 0]

Thank you for the quick comments.

When she made contact again, 40 days after no show. We referred her to the warranty, as by that point it was outside the 30 days, also the vehicle came with a free 6 month AA warranty with a £1000 claim limit, it is a easy fix to replace two bolts, we also offered free inspection and repair. 
After that she wrote to us every two months asking to reject the car which we declined, because the vehicle may failed it's MOT in 6 months is not a valid reason to reject, the blots snap was not existed at the time of sale and we have a pre delivery check list that she signed to proved.  It is her decision when to summit to Court and we don't know why she waited all this time. 

Legal advise - by providing her a gesture of goodwill offer to accept the vehicle back is equally accepted her right to reject?! 

[MarkTVS 209]

I think you’ve done more than enough, I would speak to lawgistics for correct legal advice but I’d say you’ve been more than reasonable.

[Casper 272]

44 minutes ago, MCE said:

Thank you for the quick comments.

When she made contact again, 40 days after no show. We referred her to the warranty, as by that point it was outside the 30 days, also the vehicle came with a free 6 month AA warranty with a £1000 claim limit, it is a easy fix to replace two bolts, we also offered free inspection and repair. 
After that she wrote to us every two months asking to reject the car which we declined, because the vehicle may failed it's MOT in 6 months is not a valid reason to reject, the blots snap was not existed at the time of sale and we have a pre delivery check list that she signed to proved.  It is her decision when to summit to Court and we don't know why she waited all this time. 

Legal advise - by providing her a gesture of goodwill offer to accept the vehicle back is equally accepted her right to reject?! 

All I'm saying about the legal advice is your legal adviser can fight your corner if it does go to court by arguing it out that you have been more than fair .. 

[Arfur Dealy 823]

1 hour ago, MCE said:

Hi, 

We are small family run independent dealer, been in the Trade over 10 years. Want to share and get some advise on a case we due going to Court.

Customer purchased a 2006 Subaru Impreza with 111,000 miles in Sep 2018 (Yes, 2018). 10 days later she complaint that the vehicle may not pass its future MOT 6 months later and the steering had become stiff. She than confirmed to us the vehicle is for her son who just passed the driving test.

it seem to us that she made a wrong decision buying a 2.0 Subaru for a first time buyer and just want to get out of the vehicle, so we declined her 30 days rejection but as gesture of goodwill we offer to purchase the vehicle back by deducted the used mileage of £130.00. This offer was accepted and a date and time was agreed to return the vehicle, but she didn't turn up, she contact us to say she still waiting the log book so she need to wait for the log book to claim the road tax, we told her we will still provide her the refund without the log book. After her no show, we wrote to her  the next day and said our goodwill offer is now withdrawn because she didn't turn up as agreed.

40 days later, she made contact again, say she is now taking us to Court for the full refund. 
We spoke with a solicitor, he said because we offer to accept the vehicle, the Judge would accept her claim and order us to accept the car again. (no matter it is goodwill offer), as the CRA did not stated when the consumer must return the good. She signed the invoice stated it is her responsibility to return the vehicle but the solicitor said the goodwill offer will deem as we accepted her right to reject from the Judges view.
Is anyone have smaillier experience in Court? 40 days later she provided a "per purchase inspection report" stated the blot had broken on the steering which caused it become stiff. She also confirmed in writing that the steering was normal at the time of sale and only become stiff 5 days later.

We thought we simply offered a solution to end the matter, but we now put ourself in a worst position by doing so. 
Any advise would be appreciated.

Welcome. Has she provided proof  the car was unfit for purpose or unsafe within the 30 days ? The burden of proof is on her to reject within 30 days. 

I'm sure your gesture was "without prejudice". The CRA is very clear about the burden of proof. No proof no refund. 

[David Ayers 171]

Did it fail the Mot?

[MCE 0]

Not when she first complaint, the reason to reject is she worry the vehicle 2006 with over 111,000 miles won't pass its future MOT (6 month later) and she indicated the steering wheel became stiff 5 days later. No mechanic report at that point.

We suspected the reason she want to return is the car not suitable for her son a first time buyer, so we just want to end the matter (been reasonable), as such we provided her a gesture of goodwill offer to buy the vehicle back. After she didn't turned up with the vehicle, 40 days later she provide a "per purchase inspection report" this report was carried out by Click mechanic.com, it doesn't record the mileage or chassis, was carried on her driveway not at a garage, it was from this report we understand why the steering became stiff due to the bolt been broken.

She confirmed in writing the steering was fine at the time of collection and only happened a few days later, we also have a signed "pre delivery check list" confirmed the steering was in full working order. We think something happened when her son (first time driver) behind the wheel, the report doesn't say why the bolt broken.  

No, the vehicle sold with a valid MOT and not due a new MOT for further 6 months. Also the vehicle had no advisory on the pass three years records.

[Casper 272]

13 hours ago, MCE said:

Not when she first complaint, the reason to reject is she worry the vehicle 2006 with over 111,000 miles won't pass its future MOT (6 month later) and she indicated the steering wheel became stiff 5 days later. No mechanic report at that point.

We suspected the reason she want to return is the car not suitable for her son a first time buyer, so we just want to end the matter (been reasonable), as such we provided her a gesture of goodwill offer to buy the vehicle back. After she didn't turned up with the vehicle, 40 days later she provide a "per purchase inspection report" this report was carried out by Click mechanic.com, it doesn't record the mileage or chassis, was carried on her driveway not at a garage, it was from this report we understand why the steering became stiff due to the bolt been broken.

She confirmed in writing the steering was fine at the time of collection and only happened a few days later, we also have a signed "pre delivery check list" confirmed the steering was in full working order. We think something happened when her son (first time driver) behind the wheel, the report doesn't say why the bolt broken.  

No, the vehicle sold with a valid MOT and not due a new MOT for further 6 months. Also the vehicle had no advisory on the pass three years records.

Should always sell with 12 months mot from a trusted garage on all stock it's been discussed here many times I know not every one does it even some larger dealers but is saves a lot of grief later on though I guess it could be argued that was only the condition at time of test .. just a bit of friendly advice 

thought i think your probably right that the car was fine and wanted to return it due to insurance premiums etc for her son .

Edited October 24, 2019 by Casper

[MCE 0]

Yes, I agreed moving forward. Thanks 

I will keep everyone update on the Court hearing in Dec, depend on the outcome, it will certainly have a big effect for any business believe to move the matter by provide gesture goodwill offer, if it does proof it put us in a worst position compare to we just continue declined her claim. 

[Casper 272]

18 minutes ago, MCE said:

Yes, I agreed moving forward. Thanks 

I will keep everyone update on the Court hearing in Dec, depend on the outcome, it will certainly have a big effect for any business believe to move the matter by provide gesture goodwill offer, if it does proof it put us in a worst position compare to we just continue declined her claim. 

Keep us all updated 

[trade vet 704]

Good example of asking for trouble.Sorry but why would you want to retail a 12 year old Impreza if you have been trading for 10 years..What sort of woman would want to buy it,did no one within your family business not ask any questions. Good Luck.

[MCE 0]

We specialist in Subaru and if you know Subaru, it is the old classic model that keep go up in value. The issue here is not the age / mileage, as we all know new car can still have complaint. 

[trade vet 704]

3 minutes ago, MCE said:

We specialist in Subaru and if you know Subaru, it is the old classic model that keep go up in value. The issue here is not the age / mileage, as we all know new car can still have complaint. 

OK. Do you sell Imprezas to many women.Then being a specialist why did you not just get the car back and a give your customer a full refund.I would expect you must be used to rebuilding them !     Based on my experience of selling a handful of them,I think CRA 15 and retailing old Imprezas is not a good mix.

[MCE 0]

Yes, we do sell many Subaru to women. We are not a repair garage and not have experience rebuild them, especially the one we pick are well look after. 

We did offer a gesture goodwill refund after deduction of £130 on used mileage as we declined her ground for rejection.
I am not intend to caused argument on this chat but to share experience so other dealer can be aware. Thank you for you comment. 

[TangoVictor32 90]

Your solicitor is clueless if he thinks a gesture of goodwill can go against you. 

A gesture of goodwill is what it is. 

Always get a second opinion. 

 

[BHM 994]

I’ve only speed-readed this but if I understand this correctly, as well as the goodwill offer, any subsequent MOT on the website may be of help - assuming it was MOTed 6 months after you sold it the the failures (if any) may be in your favour.

Surely if no MOT failure later relating to the alleged problem 6 months after sale = get out of jail free card.

[MCE 0]

That's was my original thought, but the solicitor said, no matter what basis you use to made that decision, the point is you accept the vehicle back, the Judge will deem you accepted her right of reject within 30 days?!

Even we had written confirmation, "we declined your 30 days rejection, but as gesture of goodwill we will accept the vehicle back at £xxxx as full and final settlement of your complaint." She accepted written in black and white, "I understand you declined my right to reject but we will accept your partial refund..... 

But she didn't turn up to return the vehicle on the agreed day, than contact us again 40 days later.

My solicitor further said there is no time limit when she need to return the vehicle in CRA, but in fact we need to provide a full refund within 14 days after accepting the vehicle back, with or without her returning it???????

I am totally lost in this case, surly can't be so one sided! Any comment and advise are most appreciated. 

 

[David Ayers 171]

13 minutes ago, MCE said:

My solicitor further said there is no time limit when she need to return the vehicle in CRA,

As I read it you weren’t accepting it back under the CRA. You were purchasing the vehicle back.

Again. Has the vehicle been Mot’d since?  I would thought it would be impossible to reject a vehicle that they have continued to use. 

Edited October 24, 2019 by David Ayers

[MCE 0]

That's correct, hence is not a full refund. But my solicitor said it doesn't matter, the Judge would view the outcome of that decision is having the vehicle back = accepted her rejection!

[trade vet 704]

18 minutes ago, MCE said:

That's was my original thought, but the solicitor said, no matter what basis you use to made that decision, the point is you accept the vehicle back, the Judge will deem you accepted her right of reject within 30 days?!

Even we had written confirmation, "we declined your 30 days rejection, but as gesture of goodwill we will accept the vehicle back at £xxxx as full and final settlement of your complaint." She accepted written in black and white, "I understand you declined my right to reject but we will accept your partial refund..... 

But she didn't turn up to return the vehicle on the agreed day, than contact us again 40 days later.

My solicitor further said there is no time limit when she need to return the vehicle in CRA, but in fact we need to provide a full refund within 14 days after accepting the vehicle back, with or without her returning it???????

I am totally lost in this case, surly can't be so one sided! Any comment and advise are most appreciated. 

 

Now we are getting somewhere.Your customer confirmed in writing they were accepting your offer.I would say she was entering into a contract at that stage and she subsequently reneged.That might make a difference but don’t bank on it.

[justina3 518]

and clea

23 minutes ago, tradex said:

I'm still wondering if it got MOTd ....be another 6 months at this rate, maybe this post isn't fit for porpoise? 

You also need some decent legal advice,  sorry, but most of the above is utter bollox. 

and clearly not for a solicitor smells of google advise.com to me.

[MCE 0]

Your never know, now a day anything can be not fit for purpose!

The legal advise came from a Partner of a big Law firm, that is why worry me! Is not from Mr Google!

[JA Trader 58]

Okay ill try then.

 

HAS IT BEEN MOTD SINCE YOU SOLD IT ???