September......

[EPV 631]

17 minutes ago, Nick M.K. said:

I don't know why you and Simon keep repeating that mantra. We are not discussing a service-inclusive package here.

We are not talking about maintenance at all. We are talking about the sudden and unexpected failure of a (non wear and tear) part which is supposed to last the lifetime of a car. An alternator or starter motors being a nice example. 

When a customer pays you a "Retail price" profit margin they have this expectation that if a part like that failed for a short period of time after their purchase you will have some responsibility to take on some or all of the cost. 

That warranty very nicely defines AND limits the time frame for this, the miles covered, lists the covered parts, even sets a price limit for the claims and leaves you a record for all this. How do you see a value in a PDI but can't see the value in this? Why don't you trial it selectively on just a few of your vehicles?

I don't disagree with that, if a part like an alternator or starter motor failed a short period of time after they had been sold the car I would 100% contribute towards the cost. I don't dispute that at all.

 

10 minutes ago, twerp said:

Things like this in your adverts can't help - surely it inspires certain expectations? :

What's wrong with that? Should I instead put "you're on your own, sunshine"

Aftercare meaning "if you ring me with a failed starter motor 2 days after you have bought a car, I will sort it out for you"

It doesn't mean "2 months after you bought a car from me and driven it 2000 miles, I'll replace the clutch"

There's a whole load of grey area between those two statements as well!

[twerp 69]

Fair enough, I liked your comment in response to Nick. It seems that your sales pitch begins to lower their expectations in line with CRA

[Nick M.K. 574]

I know that different things work well for different set ups, mine is very similar to both James and Simon, a one-man-band, a dozen cars, I don't rely on video as much but I get a lot of finance interest in my stock. Each and every finance company that set me up asked "Do you offer a warranty" so I had to start offering it if I was to get the finance deals. After paying WarrantyWise for a couple of years (average of £150 per car per 3 months) I switched to the self-administered £5 per-car-per-3-months option and have not looked back since. In fact looking forward I think I'll start making revenue from extending my own warranties. 

[EPV 631]

1 minute ago, twerp said:

Fair enough, I liked your comment in response to Nick. It seems that your sales pitch begins to lower their expectations in line with CRA

I will 100% return to offering warranties when I hopefully grow larger and offer higher value cars.

A case in point, I offered a warranty (with all the exclusions listed) to a chap on a 2004 bmw 545i tourer. he had a battery issue the day after handover which I sorted straightaway for him, took his car back and even topped up the fuel tank.

8 weeks later he called me saying he needs to make another warranty claim, this time its a water pump and an oil leak "somewhere" and armed with the knowledge I did not have before, I declined to help him (politely) as the warranty does not cover wear and tear.

He wasn't happy at all, saying it was a worthless warranty etc and you know what? I agree with him, it's worthless. I can do without having those sorts of conversations in my life, so I would rather, as you say, lower (well, align) people's expectation with the CRA and not kid them on I will pay for something weeks down the line when I won't.

2 minutes ago, Nick M.K. said:

I know that different things work well for different set ups, mine is very similar to both James and Simon, a one-man-band, a dozen cars, I don't rely on video as much but I get a lot of finance interest in my stock. Each and every finance company that set me up asked "Do you offer a warranty" so I had to start offering it if I was to get the finance deals. After paying WarrantyWise for a couple of years (average of £150 per car per 3 months) I switched to the self-administered £5 per-car-per-3-months option and have not looked back since. In fact looking forward I think I'll start making revenue from extending my own warranties. 

Your stock profile is definitely a cut above mine though Nick. 

If I were offering £14k electric cars to the middle class masses I would 100% be offering warranties.

[Mark101 536]

A clutch in my opinion is fundamentally a wear and tear item but personally (bring on the flames), I believe a customer has a right to expect that clutch to last at least to the end of their warranty period.  Customers are always paranoid about clutches and timing belts from my experience.

The only customer who pisses me off are the ones who know they are buying a sold as seen car (yes I know we shouldn't) and are happy to save £'s only to start spouting selective CRA at me.

I have no issue paying out for almost anything to someone who has paid my retail price, my margin is high and they only see my "value" when they have a claim.  Today, I have fitted a £354+VAT + Labour shock absorber to a TT.  Am I pissed off, no, would I rather not, yes but I had £1700 across that car and just sold his PX for another + £1200.  It's my job, the reason I rarely allow to be chipped and the reason people come back (the PX went to a repeat customer).

I would have acted the same if it went on day 59 or day 1.  Each to their own.

[Nick M.K. 574]

1 minute ago, EPV said:

If I were offering £14k electric cars to the middle class masses I would 100% be offering warranties.

If I was offering £14K electric cars (it's mainly retirees that have bought them so far by the way) I would go broke. Mine are 17K and 19K. Nearly sold one yesterday but his VW Beetle 1.2 TSI p/x was in deal-breaking condition. 

[EPV 631]

Just now, Nick M.K. said:

If I was offering £14K electric cars (it's mainly retirees that have bought them so far by the way) I would go broke. Mine are 17K and 19K. Nearly sold one yesterday but his VW Beetle 1.2 TSI p/x was in deal-breaking condition. 

Alright, show off 

I should perhaps not use the word "maintenance" when I discuss this subject, I should instead say "repairs"

I must say you lot are making me nervous now at all the punters I'm going to lose out on by not offering warranties 

I have in mind that I will play certain situations by ear. If at the end of the day, someone is adamant they want a warranty, I will offer a 3 month third party one for a £100 contribution from the punter (it will cost me £175) in the hope of doing a deal. 

[Mark101 536]

1 minute ago, EPV said:

Alright, show off 

I should perhaps not use the word "maintenance" when I discuss this subject, I should instead say "repairs"

I must say you lot are making me nervous now at all the punters I'm going to lose out on by not offering warranties 

I have in mind that I will play certain situations by ear. If at the end of the day, someone is adamant they want a warranty, I will offer a 3 month third party one for a £100 contribution from the punter (it will cost me £175) in the hope of doing a deal. 

I did the other week say warranty is 1 month upgradable to 3 months for a ton - he paid a ton.

[EPV 631]

8 minutes ago, Mark101 said:

A clutch in my opinion is fundamentally a wear and tear item but personally (bring on the flames), I believe a customer has a right to expect that clutch to last at least to the end of their warranty period.  Customers are always paranoid about clutches and timing belts from my experience.

The only customer who pisses me off are the ones who know they are buying a sold as seen car (yes I know we shouldn't) and are happy to save £'s only to start spouting selective CRA at me.

I have no issue paying out for almost anything to someone who has paid my retail price, my margin is high and they only see my "value" when they have a claim.  Today, I have fitted a £354+VAT + Labour shock absorber to a TT.  Am I pissed off, no, would I rather not, yes but I had £1700 across that car and just sold his PX for another + £1200.  It's my job, the reason I rarely allow to be chipped and the reason people come back (the PX went to a repeat customer).

I would have acted the same if it went on day 59 or day 1.  Each to their own.

I see your point but even Mr Clutch only offer a 12,000 mile (so 1 year basically) on a NEW clutch so if your warranty is 3 months and the clutch goes on 2 months 25 days you're saying you think the punter has a right to expect a USED one to last that long?

Discretion I think is the key here. We all give examples of what we would and wouldn't do but there's seldom anything black and white in this area of discussion and where I say I don't offer a warranty if a nice chap came to me 6 weeks after he's bought a car from me and he says he had to get a new Fuel Pump fitted to his 65k 8 year old car and it costs him £300, I'd offer him £100 towards the cost as a gesture.

If I didn't like the bloke, he badgered me for a discount constantly at pre sale stage, messed around a little and cribbed every scratch on the car I wouldn't be giving him the steam off my piss.

[Nick M.K. 574]

11 minutes ago, Mark101 said:

I believe a customer has a right to expect that clutch to last at least to the end of their warranty period

That's exactly the debate. If you do offer a warranty that period is defined. Even though a clutch is a w&t part I would also replace a failed one. If however you don't offer a warranty how long can the customer reasonably expect you to help (if at all)...

2 minutes ago, EPV said:

If I didn't like the bloke, he badgered me for a discount constantly at pre sale stage, messed around a little and cribbed every scratch on the car I wouldn't be giving him the steam off my piss.

+1, no debate there. For a customer like this I will invalidate the warranty due to "unreasonable behaviour". 

[c_cars 56]

24 minutes ago, Nick M.K. said:

I know that different things work well for different set ups, mine is very similar to both James and Simon, a one-man-band, a dozen cars, I don't rely on video as much but I get a lot of finance interest in my stock. Each and every finance company that set me up asked "Do you offer a warranty" so I had to start offering it if I was to get the finance deals. After paying WarrantyWise for a couple of years (average of £150 per car per 3 months) I switched to the self-administered £5 per-car-per-3-months option and have not looked back since. In fact looking forward I think I'll start making revenue from extending my own warranties. 

My mistake, thought you were pitch based for some reason!

[EPV 631]

Just now, Nick M.K. said:

That's exactly the debate. If you do offer a warranty that period is defined. Even though a clutch is a w&t part I would also replace a failed one. If however you don't offer a warranty how long can the customer reasonably expect you to help (if at all)...

How long? In line with the CRA mate. The law.

You buy a 6 year old car with 31k on from me and 3 months and 3,000 miles later, the gearbox inexplicably goes pop. I'd be finding a recon gearbox, cursing my luck and sorting it out. I think I'd have little chance of getting any joy out of a judge so would just do it and be done with it.

If the car had 130k on and was 12 years old, I'd be taking my chances with the small claims court.

Again, there's loads of grey between the two examples isn't there.

I just personally think it's better to align the customers expectations with what they are entitled to in line with the law, than with a warranty that has undoubtedly raised their expectations, no matter how well you explained it's coverage.

You asked why I value the PDI so highly and not a warranty earlier, well, because the PDI is the line in the sand that shows the fault was either there, or not. This is absolutely crucial when either accepting you need to repair something or, if you want to, rebut it. I value a PDI very highly also because it gives me peace of mind that a mechanic has gone over and above what an MOT tester would do and I know I'm selling a used vehicle in as best condition as possible. Rather that than a warranty any day of the week. For me, anyway.

[Nick M.K. 574]

19 minutes ago, EPV said:

I value a PDI very highly also because it gives me peace of mind

There! You said it. Perception. 

The warranty gives your customer the exact same peace of mind. It's the exact same product. A sheet of paper with boxes and clauses, signed by someone authorised to sign it who makes a certain promise. A PDI can get thrown out in small claims court just as easily as I can say "This is not a covered component under the terms and conditions of our limited warranty". 

Spend the fiver, give them the peace of mind. Give them the bragging rights (because all other rights they still have anyway) to tell their wife or a brother or whoever asks them:

"Yes, the car I bought does come with a warranty, it was a genuine dealer that I bought from, highly rated as well." It's all perception. 

Sorry, we hijacked this topic titled September. 

My September is OK. Not exceptional but I was away until the 7th and my first sale did not happen until the 18th. 4 sold, 3 on finance, 2 more on the go and 1 finance decline. Oh and one deposit refunded because I genuinely think my prospective buyer was crazy. Among other things he wanted two keys (2009 Merc), we have both but one isn't working. He said to him this was the end of the world. 

 

Edited September 21, 2018 by Nick M.K.

[Mark101 536]

I did another one last night - the first from the new unit.  Got someone coming tomorrow on the DS3 from Cornwall.

[Rory RSC 596]

5 minutes ago, Mark101 said:

I did another one last night - the first from the new unit.  Got someone coming tomorrow on the DS3 from Cornwall.

Is his name Marcus ?

[Mark101 536]

Just now, Rory RSC said:

Is his name Marcus ?

No, Sarah - well at the weekend anyway.

[Rory RSC 596]

EPV I think the no warranty thing is a terrible decision. You are a smart switched on guy but its not the way to boost consumer confidence.

I only pay for stuff that I am meant to on our warranties and not complete stupid wear and tear stuff but like Mark we take enough out of them, do enough units that don't come back t deal with the few that do. 

A lot of these folk you help on minor issues are ungrateful and you don't get so much as a thanks but  a good few years further down the line plenty of friends of customers who had warranty claim, family, and the original buyer are coming back to us. Eyes on the long game.

You know that a PDI shows everything works today is fine. You also know 5 days later if something packs in your are going to pay for it, play the game call it a warranty ( your own in house or administered ones not warrantywise / autoprotect rubbish).

[It's me 612]

26 minutes ago, Nick M.K. said:

 The warranty gives your customer the exact same peace of mind. It's the exact same product.

 

no

the pdi if used as a sales tool instils customers into the fact you have done everything in your power to stop them even needing an aftermarket warranty

they have confidence that the product will fulfil its duty

an aftermarket warranty is just a get out that if it goes faulty someone will repair it at possibly no cost to yourself

if you do an mot and a proper full pdi including engine service and full brake inspetion then there is no reason in the short term unless abused that the vehicle should failand the mot will show no advisories

however if it does fail in the service of the new owner and remember cars are washing machines with wheels then get back to me to see if we can be of help 

this is what i say and what i do,it might even mean fitting part at cost and no labour but i get repeat custom and recommendations 

Edited September 21, 2018 by boring dave
fawlty keyboard made me spend too long posting see rory post too

[c_cars 56]

Tail end of the month is dire here too, 16 currently, hoping to get to 20 before the month is out.

[Arfur Dealy 823]

3 hours ago, Nick M.K. said:

I don't know why you and Simon keep repeating that mantra. We are not discussing a service-inclusive package here.

We are not talking about maintenance at all. We are talking about the sudden and unexpected failure of a (non wear and tear) part which is supposed to last the lifetime of a car. An alternator or starter motors being a nice example. 

When a customer pays you a "Retail price" profit margin they have this expectation that if a part like that failed for a short period of time after their purchase you will have some responsibility to take on some or all of the cost. 

That warranty very nicely defines AND limits the time frame for this, the miles covered, lists the covered parts, even sets a price limit for the claims and leaves you a record for all this. How do you see a value in a PDI but can't see the value in this? Why don't you trial it selectively on just a few of your vehicles?

I don't agree an alternator or starter motor should last the lifetime of a car. If the part isn't guaranteed to work for the lidetime of the car by the Manufacturer, why should we be responsible.... If one failed within the first 30 days I would be offering the cost of used example. You don't get "new for old" in my opinion.

2 hours ago, EPV said:

I don't disagree with that, if a part like an alternator or starter motor failed a short period of time after they had been sold the car I would 100% contribute towards the cost. I don't dispute that at all.

 

What's wrong with that? Should I instead put "you're on your own, sunshine"

Aftercare meaning "if you ring me with a failed starter motor 2 days after you have bought a car, I will sort it out for you"

It doesn't mean "2 months after you bought a car from me and driven it 2000 miles, I'll replace the clutch"

There's a whole load of grey area between those two statements as well!

LIKE

2 hours ago, Nick M.K. said:

I know that different things work well for different set ups, mine is very similar to both James and Simon, a one-man-band, a dozen cars, I don't rely on video as much but I get a lot of finance interest in my stock. Each and every finance company that set me up asked "Do you offer a warranty" so I had to start offering it if I was to get the finance deals. After paying WarrantyWise for a couple of years (average of £150 per car per 3 months) I switched to the self-administered £5 per-car-per-3-months option and have not looked back since. In fact looking forward I think I'll start making revenue from extending my own warranties. 

I fully understand your market Nik, its very different to mine now, you are looking for finance, that isn't a route I want to go down. We all do things differently. 

[Max Branning 149]

The problem with warranties is your typical buyer does not understand the law around buying used goods.

Some still believe that a used car always comes with 3 months warranty by law, some understand the CRA but the majority do not. 

When they ask what warranty does it come with they just need reassurance that it is not "sold as seen " and as soon as they drive away any fault is now their problem.

Most buyers would feel really well protected with a 3 month insurance backed warranty but we all know this is not worth the paper.

It really is up to you how you run your business and how you want to deal with aftercare...remember a warranty is not required by law.

I do believe that since the days of online reviews dealers in general are more likely to help buyers out when previously they would not....a £100 repair bill rather than a terrible review could be priceless.

 

[Dealer 54]

Awful week, worst period we've ever seen to be honest. I'm in the red massively this week considering our fixed costs. 

[NOACROSS 414]

4 hours ago, Mark101 said:

A clutch in my opinion is fundamentally a wear and tear item but personally (bring on the flames), I believe a customer has a right to expect that clutch to last at least to the end of their warranty period.  Customers are always paranoid about clutches and timing belts from my experience.

The only customer who pisses me off are the ones who know they are buying a sold as seen car (yes I know we shouldn't) and are happy to save £'s only to start spouting selective CRA at me.

I have no issue paying out for almost anything to someone who has paid my retail price, my margin is high and they only see my "value" when they have a claim.  Today, I have fitted a £354+VAT + Labour shock absorber to a TT.  Am I pissed off, no, would I rather not, yes but I had £1700 across that car and just sold his PX for another + £1200.  It's my job, the reason I rarely allow to be chipped and the reason people come back (the PX went to a repeat customer).

I would have acted the same if it went on day 59 or day 1.  Each to their own.

A clutch is not a wear and tear item. Unless the non-frictin parts fail.

I can assure you, my wife-for example could ruin a clutch within a week should she wish.  

If I tried, I could screw it up within an hour. Driving style.

(A lovely old lady used to buy a Micra off me every few years. A clutch would last six months if we were lucky.

Her son came in all ‘juiced up for a fight’ initially. After calming him down we went out for a drive with the old dear: I’ve never felt so sorry for a car in my life! Neither had he. Who drives a car with the clutch being ridden the whole time!?)

It’s spelled out really clearly at sale and handover that certain items aren’t covered. We make a point of highlighting that clutches and brakes/exhausts, for example are not covered- and hence the need for a new no-advisory MOT, service and customer signed Pdi. 

9 minutes ago, Dealer said:

Awful week, worst period we've ever seen to be honest. I'm in the red massively this week considering our fixed costs. 

Same here. Very depressing month after a great August. Hopefully October will bounce back. 

Edited September 21, 2018 by NOACROSS

[trade vet 697]

I think if you work on your own or you are a home trader,when you have a problem,punters are more flexible and don’t expect a warranty.However with a pitch,staff and workshops etc  and you are doing 500 or more per year,your punters expect warranties.Long ago,we began administering our own FREE 12 month 12000 mile warranty or mechanical breakdown agreement as we call it.We started by putting £70 per sale in a separate account.The fund mounted up very quickly and from then on we treated claims as an investment.The outcome was that we then did a lot more repeat business.Most people do appreciate that if they break down or have a problem miles away from home and with one call you can sort it out for them.Some of the claims would be suspect,but we just paid them.

Nowadays main dealers offer service contracts which are charged monthly and are a good source of extra income.With our new venture we are exploring a similar thing with warranties and free future MOTs and few other things.Our theory is that a good proportion of punters taking out our ‘ customer care pack’  but who will have the option to cancel at any time,will instead let them run on......I think I can sense the doorsteppers reading this with negative thoughts !

[NOACROSS 414]

1 minute ago, trade vet said:

I think if you work on your own or you are a home trader,when you have a problem,punters are more flexible and don’t expect a warranty.However with a pitch,staff and workshops etc  and you are doing 500 or more per year,your punters expect warranties.Long ago,we began administering our own FREE 12 month 12000 mile warranty or mechanical breakdown agreement as we call it.We started by putting £70 per sale in a separate account.The fund mounted up very quickly and from then on we treated claims as an investment.The outcome was that we then did a lot more repeat business.Most people do appreciate that if they break down or have a problem miles away from home and with one call you can sort it out for them.Some of the claims would be suspect,but we just paid them.

Nowadays main dealers offer service contracts which are charged monthly and are a good source of extra income.With our new venture we are exploring a similar thing with warranties and free future MOTs and few other things.Our theory is that a good proportion of punters taking out our ‘ customer care pack’  but who will have the option to cancel at any time,will instead let them run on......I think I can sense the doorsteppers reading this with negative thoughts !

I don’t think cars really have many issues nowadays within the warranty periods on the whole. Or, at least that’s my experience over the last five/six years. Especially if you prep right and buy right. 

How’s your week progresssed T.V? Any further forward?  

I think you should start a new thread on your venture. We’re all very invested/ cheering you on!