Trade sale issue

[Max Branning 149]

I have been listing some of my trade ins on ebay as "trade sales"

I do say clearly on the ads that the cars are part exchanges, have not been mechanically inspected and are suitable for members of the motor trade only. 

I have sold an astra at the weekend to a "trader" the price was equivalent to CAP clean so trade money in my eyes. He signed a trade sales invoice which asks for business name and address to which he has put his own name and home address. 

He has rang me this morning to say the car needs a lot of work more than was described in the listing, by the way i did not describe anything in the listing, other than it starts and drives and the above disclaimer.

He has kicked off basically and demanded i take the car back to which i have refused. Guess what Hes getting in touch with trading standards and his solicitor !

This is the first trade sale i have have had any complaints over, am i in the right here to stand my ground and refuse to take the car back?

[umesh 336]

Max , Unless he's a bona fide trader you'll have problems, I know what the advert stated and he's put his name and home address , but you know what these laws are , regardless of him signing it to say its a trade sale the law will say you should have got proof of trade.! Good luck mate !

[justina3 518]

What a nightmare, I would call his bluff  trading standards are stretched to almost braking so cant seem them getting overly involved in this, as regards him contacting a solicitor that’s the oldest line in the book and with all the recent changes to the small claims courts ect it will costs him to pursue it with only the costs of repairs at the end of it even if he did win.

 

 

[SC Derby 259]

Surely if you advertise it as a trade sale and he signs to confirm he is in the trade, then that is that? How much more can be expected of you?

Is it really up to us to prove other people are in the trade or not? Haven't we got enough to do?

[Rory RSC 596]

Agree with SC.

 

This guy sure as hell would not be complaining if the car had flown an MOT and it was sat on his driveway with £200 profit in it  

[justina3 518]

I presume he is throwing the car is not fit for purpose at you, had that last year its a right pain in the backside 

[Max Branning 149]

1 hour ago, umesh said:

Max , Unless he's a bona fide trader you'll have problems, I know what the advert stated and he's put his name and home address , but you know what these laws are , regardless of him signing it to say its a trade sale the law will say you should have got proof of trade.! Good luck mate !

This is what concerns me Umesh. But how far do you need to go here, You could ask for proof of insurance or trade plates or Vat number but at the end of the day if someone agrees to your T&Cs and signs a receipt which clearly states TRADE SALE INVOICE and asks for a BUSINESS name and address then surely that is enough. 

Its bad enough when the retail customers come back but when the traders come back its a piss take. I have never complained about any car i have bought either online or from auction, yes its a pain when you get a lemon but you just take it on the chin, part of the game.

 

[justina3 518]

Like the Sale of Goods Act that preceded it, the Consumer Rights Actstates 01 oct 2015 that products must be:

• of satisfactory quality
• fit for purpose, and
• as described

 

my understanding is that even if you ask someone to sign a disclaimer you are unable to remove there rights under the above act, therefore even if they sign what ever you ask it can not be enforced by you.

similar rules apply to sold as seen no warranty ect comments on invoices

[SC Derby 259]

Consumer rights do not apply to trade sales.

[Gavin@Rousdon 137]

Ebay isn't a trade only site. Trading standards take a dim view as it looks very much like someone trying to avoid there legal responsibilities whilst selling vehicles. Your inviting trouble trying to dispose of stock this way as you are advertising them for sale to the general public. 

[Willoughby 15]

I think that if its clear its a trade sale, and importantly you don't give a description (other than factual one i.e. make, model, spec etc) or discuss if its fit for his purpose, then this potentially only leaves "of satisfactory quality" which is a relative term related to age, mileage and price. If it went to a small claims court the buyer would somehow need to satisfy this test.  

If the buyer is the type who wants to go all the way i'd just give him a refund and sell it to someone else. Hopefully he might realise his case isn't as watertight as he may have thought and take it on the chin.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jack Regan 116]

ring trading standards your self , explain what you've told us , I think they would be on your side.

[Cornish Guy 45]

Lots of people are advertising barn finds on ebay. 

If you advertise something for spares or repair, what is the situation then?

Max, you have been open and honest. I agree with Jack. Talk to trading standards

 

[Max Branning 149]

Bit of a minefield this, surprising how many dealers have conflicting views on this type of thing. It would help if there was something in black and white that says you can or cant do this. I get Gavins point about ebay not being a trade site but also as has been said there is no misleading in anyway, The cars are advertised as strictly trade sales to members of the motor trade so i really dont see how anyone could take this guy seriously if he did take matters further...time will tell.

On another note, can anyone recommend a good place to outlet the trade stuff bearing in mind i am talking about bangers under a grand, somewhere that people will actually want to buy this type thing?

[Steve92 80]

Did the v5 get registered directly to a person or was the trade section filled out ?

in a previous role not related to cars I would regularly have customers threaten us with trading standards (well a couple per year) all I used to say is here is my number, email please pass it along with my details to trading standards and I will help them in any way I can. I only ever spoke to them once and trading standards were on our side.

if you had a specific trade invoice, they filled out the yellow section (did they have trade plates or tax the car prior to taking it) then I don't see the issue, it was advertised as a trade sale although there are grey areas around that so you should be ok. Do you know if they were actually a trader ?

[Max Branning 149]

16 minutes ago, Steve92 said:

Did the v5 get registered directly to a person or was the trade section filled out ?

in a previous role not related to cars I would regularly have customers threaten us with trading standards (well a couple per year) all I used to say is here is my number, email please pass it along with my details to trading standards and I will help them in any way I can. I only ever spoke to them once and trading standards were on our side.

if you had a specific trade invoice, they filled out the yellow section (did they have trade plates or tax the car prior to taking it) then I don't see the issue, it was advertised as a trade sale although there are grey areas around that so you should be ok. Do you know if they were actually a trader ?

The V5 was passed to the trader. We filled the trade slip out and the customer who part exchanged it was given the trade slip to sign and return. He did not have trade plates not sure whether he taxed it or not before leaving as once he left my office i was not paying attention to be honest. Was he an actual trader? well that is the million dollar question but he said he was and signed a trade invoice that clearly asks for the business name and address, so i have to assume he was some sort of trader ! 

As far as i am aware anybody can call themselves a trader if they are actively buying and selling vehicles, even if its just 1 car every 3 months off your driveway surely this still counts as TRADE.

[Steve92 80]

I don't see the issue then, b2b don't have consumer law on their side, he said he was a trader, the v5 wasn't filled in and just passed from trader to trader. It's buyer beware, I doubt trading standards would be interested and if they do contact you I would refer them to how the sale was conducted and that the paperwork supports this.

[sparky 274]

13 hours ago, Max Branning said:

14 hours ago, Cornish Guy said:

Lots of people are advertising barn finds on ebay. 

If you advertise something for spares or repair, what is the situation then?

Max, you have been open and honest. I agree with Jack. Talk to trading standards

 

 

Over the next few weeks I'm going to put a Triumph Stag on ebay. It's goosed ( although I dare say Manheim would give it a bronze label) so any ideas on how best to describe it or should I just sell the car to myself and then put it on my private ebay account?

[Jack Regan 116]

14 hours ago, Max Branning said:

Bit of a minefield this, surprising how many dealers have conflicting views on this type of thing. It would help if there was something in black and white that says you can or cant do this. I get Gavins point about ebay not being a trade site but also as has been said there is no misleading in anyway, The cars are advertised as strictly trade sales to members of the motor trade so i really dont see how anyone could take this guy seriously if he did take matters further...time will tell.

On another note, can anyone recommend a good place to outlet the trade stuff bearing in mind i am talking about bangers under a grand, somewhere that people will actually want to buy this type thing?

 Yup .. eBay

[justina3 518]

local gumtree we use for this kind of thing, whilst its owned by ebay it appears to attract the local price hunter in our area anyway

[Dave Brown 15]

Morning all, I hope no-one minds but I have just sent a link to this thread to our friends at Lawgistics. They are very busy people but might have something helpful to add to the discussion and maybe clarify things a bit ! Have a good Friday.

[Mat C 77]

I have a similar problem moving trade stuff on. sub £1k cars

Any ideas where we can get rid - i have a trial with cartotrade however they want £40 a month! 

At the minute I advertise them as trade cars on AT/Website/Gumtree & Ebay I give no warranty ( which is legal ) and any issues found on safety check ( which we do to every car ) are listed, the car is priced according to its faults / condition and that's that. However we ensure its roadworthy, so brakes/tryres/MOT failure Items are sorted.

Our cars are fit for purpose ( they start, stop, run and drive )

Satisfactory quality ( based on asking price )

As described ( if anything i'm too honest and show people every nick, scratch, broken trim etc ) 

I had a Punto 4 weeks ago - 2 days in, gearbox smashed to bits in 5/6th, it worked when I drove it, when he drove it on test drive and for the previous owner had it for 6 years - However being a realist, I didn't want to see a young lad with a £1000 gearbox bill, I found a box, had it fitted and he contributed £150 to the bill. We spoke about it like grown ups and hes driving his car now with a smile on his face. I lost £200 overall on the deal but it was a px for a deal that I made £800 on, so i'm still up.

I think with these things, if it breaks, fix it or give them their money back.

I use Lawgistics for their self underwritten warranty product ( which works for me ) and they are always very helpful by the way.

Mat ( sorry about all the brackets, i have no idea why I do that! )

[Gavin@Rousdon 137]

Is it not easier just to send them to a local auction or get a trader to buy a job lot. The whole advertising them to 'trade only' on places such as ebay is a little risky as may consider must trade sales aren't carried out this way and it could be a way of trying to side step consumer law. We all look at cars and think 'thats cheap and clean' but in reality it's just leaving yourself open to a world or pain if it goes wrong. Customers lie and I'm sure they would be happy to tell a court they made it clear they weren't trade but you guided them through the process. Also what happens if someone is involved in an accident and the car is deemed unroadworthy. 

It is really worth the hassle??

[Max Branning 149]

1 hour ago, Gavin@Rousdon said:

Is it not easier just to send them to a local auction or get a trader to buy a job lot. The whole advertising them to 'trade only' on places such as ebay is a little risky as may consider must trade sales aren't carried out this way and it could be a way of trying to side step consumer law. We all look at cars and think 'thats cheap and clean' but in reality it's just leaving yourself open to a world or pain if it goes wrong. Customers lie and I'm sure they would be happy to tell a court they made it clear they weren't trade but you guided them through the process. Also what happens if someone is involved in an accident and the car is deemed unroadworthy. 

It is really worth the hassle??

Sending them to a local auction is what i was doing previously. The last car i sent there was an 03 plate renault clio, tidy enough really but only had around 3 weeks mot left on it. I gave the customer £395 for it off the car they was buying at £2995 it had to be this or the deal would not happen. The clio went to auction and was sold as no reserve like all the cheapies. It went under the hammer for £100 then there was £75 sales commision ! so i pulled 25 quid...!

After this i decided to stick them on ebay as trade sales just to at least get my money back...im sure it would be £695 on someones driveway? so asking say 395 as a trade sale seems fair to give a small time trader a little margin.

True though what you say about is it worth the hassle, maybe not.

 

[Jack Regan 116]

I think this is where eBay is wrong , if  you put them on as an auction then it should be same rules  as if you took them to auction.