Trade sale issue

[umesh 336]

1 hour ago, Jack Regan said:

I think this is where eBay is wrong , if  you put them on as an auction then it should be same rules  as if you took them to auction.

As we know this auction is an auction with a twist ! #NeverUseIt 

[andymc1973 199]

the issue with ebay auctions is half of the idiots dont turn up

[LawJaw 50]

On 03/06/2016 at 9:59 AM, Dave Brown said:

Morning all, I hope no-one minds but I have just sent a link to this thread to our friends at Lawgistics. They are very busy people but might have something helpful to add to the discussion and maybe clarify things a bit ! Have a good Friday.

Thanks for giving us a nudge on this one Dave, there are a lot of issues in this thread and therefore we will deal with some headlines and then put together a fuller response in one of our next legal updates.

 

First off, if this is a regular practice of yours Max and you allow sales to consumers (which this person will no doubt now claim to be), then Trading Standards may well become interested and try and argue that you are attempting to get around consumer rights laws.  To counteract this you need, as Umesh has highlighted, to hold some sort of evidence that each individual buyer is a trader as Section 2 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 puts the onus on you to prove that your buyer is not a consumer. I don’t know what is on your trade sale invoices but ours have in large bold font – Important – Notice For Trade Sale which underneath says “It is expressly agreed that the purchaser of the vehicle sold on this invoice is a business and is not dealing as a consumer for the purposes of the Consumer Rights Act 2015”. Further down it then states that “Implied terms as to satisfactory quality/fitness for purpose do not apply to this transaction”. And then above the buyer signature it contains the words “I confirm that I have purchased this vehicle as a Trader/Trade business”. If this sort of wording is in your advert, all the better. We had a similar case in court recently and we persuaded the judge that the advert was transparent leading him to remark that “nothing in the advert amounted to misrepresentation” – in other words the dealer had made the terms of the sale very clear meaning a claim for a full refund plus costs was reduced to a small repair (this was not on one of our invoices exempting satisfactory quality and fitness for purpose hence the repair award under Sale of Goods Act 1979 - which still applies to B2B sales unless specifically exempted).

 

In short, if your advert is clear and your sales paperwork is clear then you are putting yourself in the best position to defend a claim against these buyers who want a trade price but not the trade risk.

 

As an aside, you haven’t said if your ad was on ebay classifieds or ebay auction. If auction, then we believe there is room to argue that normal auction rules apply as ‘guv’ Jack Regan has suggested.  

[Max Branning 149]

Thank you for this Lawjaw. Just to point out my trade sale invoices are provided by Lawgistics !

I usually advertise any trade sales as classifieds through my ebay pro account as it works out cheaper or else i would have to use a separate account for auction style listings as you cannot do these with ebay pro. 

I have not heard anything more (as yet) from the guy mentioned in my original post but i would like to know i am doing things right moving forward. I am trading out cheap cars usually less than £1000 that i do not want to bother retailing or no value in sending to physical auction.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Max Branning

[LawJaw 50]

Thank you for your business Max! I had to share your comment with the sales team, they found it very amusing when I told them 'Max Branning' was buying our trade sales pads

Assuming the pads are the October 2015 version and not a previous version and as long as your actual advert is just as clear re the sale being on trade terms only then you should be OK. I say ‘should’ as Trading Standards may still take an interest if they think they have evidence that you are selling to consumers but we successfully argue against Trading Standards in these sort of cases on a regular basis. As someone else said, TS are stretched these days, and so they need to concentrate on those traders who are blatantly ripping off consumers and putting them in unsafe cars rather than arguing over legal technicalities.

[Cornish Guy 45]

It's confusing that the Sale of Goods Act 1979 still applies in certain circumstances, and that it can apply to Trade sales.

[It's me 615]

On 04/06/2016 at 9:00 PM, andymc1973 said:

the issue with ebay auctions is half of the idiots dont turn up

the old addage always applies is if it smells at pos then dont take their money i only use classifieds

im a real believer in this even if short term im cutting my nose

theres always a sensible trader somewhere ready to take a risk or just scrap the things is often an easier answer if they really are worth zilch

Edited June 8, 2016 by s and b

[Mrs williams 0]

Can I just say. I have recently been a victim to this. Its horrible i have 3 kids and saved for a while to get a grand. I would expect somthing clean for that even though u might class it a banger. Anyway. Went to a dealership that advertised on gumtree ford focus 12 month MOT clean as a whistle drives nice get there, sign paper work he goes on about trade sale. I thought that meant trade money for a car, not that i work in the bloody car trade! Anyway drives beautifully for 3 weeks then blows up literally with my kids in the car fire brigade the works. So i phone the dealership have it checked by a trained mechanic and offer him the option of fixing it .. no no he says. Your a trader and we dont sell any cars under 2 grand to the public.. your invoice says trade sale! Bullshit! He knew full well Im a public member off bloody gumtree. He wouldnt offer to even get it looked at. Its an absolute disgrace!! I have spoken to trading standards today. Just warn you dealers, Putting Trade Sale on an invoice does NOT COVER YOU TO SELL TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC WITHOUT LIABILTY FOR 30 DAYS! You have no right to sell under false pretences for hard working families that just need a tidy car to go from A to B! Stop this bullshit. You will be liable in court and they are clamping down on what you might think is a loophole but the law is toughening up on this sort of thing. So think twice if u want to sell "trade cars" Make sure they are actually to other traders!!

[andymc1973 199]

i would maybe suggest getting someone to go with you next time you buy a car, if i am ever unsure on anything i get a friend who knows his onions, did you not think to ask about the trade sale?

[justina3 518]

10 hours ago, Mrs williams said:

Can I just say. I have recently been a victim to this. Its horrible i have 3 kids and saved for a while to get a grand. I would expect somthing clean for that even though u might class it a banger. Anyway. Went to a dealership that advertised on gumtree ford focus 12 month MOT clean as a whistle drives nice get there, sign paper work he goes on about trade sale. I thought that meant trade money for a car, not that i work in the bloody car trade! Anyway drives beautifully for 3 weeks then blows up literally with my kids in the car fire brigade the works. So i phone the dealership have it checked by a trained mechanic and offer him the option of fixing it .. no no he says. Your a trader and we dont sell any cars under 2 grand to the public.. your invoice says trade sale! Bullshit! He knew full well Im a public member off bloody gumtree. He wouldnt offer to even get it looked at. Its an absolute disgrace!! I have spoken to trading standards today. Just warn you dealers, Putting Trade Sale on an invoice does NOT COVER YOU TO SELL TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC WITHOUT LIABILTY FOR 30 DAYS! You have no right to sell under false pretences for hard working families that just need a tidy car to go from A to B! Stop this bullshit. You will be liable in court and they are clamping down on what you might think is a loophole but the law is toughening up on this sort of thing. So think twice if u want to sell "trade cars" Make sure they are actually to other traders!!

 

i truly hope you get justice, not all dealers are the same hope next time you have more luck.

[grant8064 219]

I really struggle with trade sales also.

I have a local breaker/fixer upper who buys odd cars but he's picky about makes/models and also seems to have a £75 limit.

I honestly thought we'd have loads of local part time traders knocking on the door when we moved but nobody has ever asked.

Local auction is pointless for me...'dealer part exchange' as the vendor kills the sale and the charges are far too high.

If the cars are good for scrap/fixing up I trade them to our local guy for £50 - £75.

Anything too good to scrap but not retail-able I stick on ebay. 

Start them at 99p, explain every known fault, describe it as spares and repairs only, no warranty, etc.

Try to be as honest as possible and basically describe the car as worse than it really is.

Not had a comeback yet but it will happen. When it does i'll simply refund the buyer and relist. Not worth the hassle of trying to fight them.

[justina3 518]

who knows its hard to tell these days, if it is i really dont understand what they get out of it but hay ho each to there own

[andymc1973 199]

I stuck a few in at local auction after they badgered me, they went throught after the "polce unclaimed" cars, great help

[Mrs williams 0]

5 hours ago, justina3 said:

Hey thanks for all the advice and its nice to hear that there are aome genuine car dealers around.  I dont understand why dealers like this would rip people off but i find it unfair.  This is the first time on this site as i was looking for people who had been through this as I have heard this is a common problem lately. 

[justina3 518]

28 minutes ago, Mrs williams said:

6 hours ago, justina3 said:

Hey thanks for all the advice and its nice to hear that there are aome genuine car dealers around.  I dont understand why dealers like this would rip people off but i find it unfair.  This is the first time on this site as i was looking for people who had been through this as I have heard this is a common problem lately. 

I very much doubt you will find people with similar problems on here sorry to say, its more like dealers moaning about this and that some days where are happy but there far and few between.

And in fairness its not only the motor trade that has a few bad apples there in all walks of life, you only have to turn the tv on and its full of cowboy builders and the likes the list goes on, i do feel if the trade was all bad it would be more shows high lighting them, i know a lot of people in my local car area and can hand on heart say i would only avoid two out of maybe 30 so thats not a bad percentage.

Doesnt help you i know just saying.

[It's me 615]

ive scrapped a mint looking focus and a double mint late plate mk2 clio this week,both had slight issues but who wants the aggro of the great unwashed in undercrackers messing you on the internet turning up on the day and leaving spittle on your floor

i dont

[andymc1973 199]

im getting that way, clio 2002 with 100k on, 500 quid! you'd have thought they'd bought a Zonda, its also not taxed or insured, a lot of these can't really afford a car

[metcars 397]

4 hours ago, tradex said:

Same here...2001 Focus 1.6 with 150k and 6 months ticket....really straight old bus, drove faultless, recent clutch, bit of late history but had a crack screen out of mot zone and rear wiper not working...£395..

After the 3rd messor expecting a new car, moaning about stone chips and expecting a 6 month warranty I scrapped it...life is too short and room is tight here.

Too cheap, should have been £595 with a 'clutch' and they can make an offer on that?

[andymc1973 199]

then they dont turn up, these people shouldnt be driving

[SC Derby 259]

I never have any problem getting rid of these type of cars, sometimes take 2 viewings but never any more. 

 

[Mrs williams 0]

On Thursday, March 23, 2017 at 3:10 PM, tradex said:

I'd guess that is the usual wind-up messer with yet another user name...yawn.

Not a wind up. Im new.

[MrC 142]

I took a 06 Tigra 50k miles, car was tidy.. But leaked in from the bulk head,common problem and easy ish fix if you can be bothered. Car was to nice to scrap, I stuck it on at £500.. I had 7, yes thats 7 viewings. Never had so much pain.  and each one of them still tried to chip me or want to px an 02 Focus!. I became rather rude in the end.  

 

 

[andymc1973 199]

2008 vectra estate, needed the room should £500 it, never ever again

nver ever ever ever agin

[Mat C 77]

I too struggle with cheapies,

I used to advertise them as no warranty and all faults declared, have them safety checked and sold at a trade price. Done alright until a nightmare one in February and sick of the 'bst price 4 cash m8' texts and dozens of unkept appointments,  I decided to find a trader, who was recommended to me. After the first one he had collected, I got the call saying the seat base was slightly worn ( on an 09 plate qashqai done 150,000! ) 2nd car he had a £800 04 plate Mini Cooper, had it collected, a week later calls me saying head gasket is not good and it wasn't as described!!!!!! What am I going to do about it?? its an £800 Mini that caps at £1100 and was described within an inch of its life... I'm not a mechanic, but it started, stopped, no noises and no fluid p1ssing out of the bottom of it.

I cant win, 

I'm going back to just chucking them out at trade money and describing ( over describing ) every fault, nick scratch and dent. 

[MrC 142]

49 minutes ago, Mat C said:

bst price 4 cash m8

Why do people still think this gets them a better deal?