The Rules

[Frank Cannon 812]

2 minutes ago, BHM said:

.......the same 72 hours as on buses, trains & supermarket shelves but they don’t count. 

Yes, BHM I fully understand, C19 has brought about so many contradictions, many pointless, many worrying....I'm thinking 'ambulance chasers' here. 

[LawJaw 50]

Re your point Frank Cannon about Norfolk Trading Standards, we received a call from a different TS on Friday asking us for more details about our legal update on the Office of Product Safety & Standards advice about test drives. So yes, it seems not all TS regions are yet up to date with the correct legal interpretation (which is very often different to what any shorthand online Gov.uk guidance might suggest).
 
The answer BHM to your point re deposited purchases is that the Covid regs mean no business can be done from the premises (as they are closed). Business can only be done in response to remote orders. A remote order = a distance sale. After Lockdown, when dealers are allowed to trade from their premises again, taking a £100 reservation fee in response to which the customer comes along and only commits to purchase after having seen the vehicle, will not be a distance sale. No 14 day return option in those circumstances.
 
The 72 hours anomaly has already been made by BHM and that is really a science question not a legal one. However, dealers will need to do the same with a round the block test drive as they would when a car is returned in the extended 14 day test drive period. This all needs to be covered in the dealer’s Covid Risk Assessment. Re employees refusing to do certain work, any such case will turn on its facts but if a fully considered Risk Assessment has deemed a task safe and the employer has provided sufficient PPE, then it should not be a problem. However, we always recommended taking tailored legal advice before making any such employee type decisions.  

[Frank Cannon 812]

Thanks Law Jaw.

.....regarding deposit here, I'm assuming it's non refundable, afterall, the vendor has satisfied his part of the deal? 

 

[trade vet 704]

4 hours ago, BHM said:

Is it just me but why is a deposited purchase from the premises a distance sale? 
If the buyer has been allowed an unencumbered test drive & inspection prior to sale & only completes the deal after finding the vehicle is to their satisfaction how/why is that a distance sale?

Is a distance sale as stated classed as an online sale.If Rishi Sunak decides to introduce an online sales tax which he is under pressure to do,dragging in used car sales might be a good earner for The Treasury ? 20% VAT is bad enough but  +5% online sale tax,...punters would love that.

[trade vet 704]

18 minutes ago, trade vet said:

Is a distance sale as stated classed as an online sale.If Rishi Sunak decides to introduce an online sales tax which he is under pressure to do,dragging in used car sales might be a good earner for The Treasury ? 20% VAT is bad enough but  +5% online sale tax,...punters would love that.

I forgot about auctions,everyone would be back to driving up and down motorways again to buy stock.

[LawJaw 50]

58 minutes ago, Frank Cannon said:

Thanks Law Jaw.

.....regarding deposit here, I'm assuming it's non refundable, afterall, the vendor has satisfied his part of the deal? 

 

Deposits are generally non refundable as it's a commitment to buy. However, for distance sales, customers can cancel and get money back (bar deductions listed in our distance sale template, available on our website) at any point from when the deposit is put down, up to 14 days after collection.

48 minutes ago, trade vet said:

Is a distance sale as stated classed as an online sale.If Rishi Sunak decides to introduce an online sales tax which he is under pressure to do,dragging in used car sales might be a good earner for The Treasury ? 20% VAT is bad enough but  +5% online sale tax,...punters would love that.

It will be interesting to see detail of Rishi Sunak's rumoured online levy but the reservation fee scenario above should help avoid that.

[have a word with the wife 299]

Stop the messers, no £100 deposit, make it £500.

[Martin F 15]

14 hours ago, BHM said:

Is it just me but why is a deposited purchase from the premises a distance sale? 
If the buyer has been allowed an unencumbered test drive & inspection prior to sale & only completes the deal after finding the vehicle is to their satisfaction how/why is that a distance sale?

I agree with this, even after Law Jaw’s update.

Distance selling protection laws were brought into protect people who were buying goods online and subsequently found descriptions were not so accurate or some other technicality was not clear, all the sorts of things that a consumer could check/receive advice on when buying physically.

If the customer has now had chance to test drive the car, and hence inspect it how can this be classed as a distance sale under the intentions of the original law? 

[BHM 994]

5 hours ago, Martin F said:

If the customer has now had chance to test drive the car, and hence inspect it how can this be classed as a distance sale under the intentions of the original law? 

.....especially as the satisfaction of the contract (the full payment) is AFTER the purchasers’ inspection/test etc. It’s no different to times before Covid in that respect. Not me, but I believe some used to refund the deposit & then take full payment to remove any uncertainty over a distance sale - personally I can see no reason why this cannot be implemented today should you so wish.

It’s my opinion that there is a lot of self promotion in the legal expertise field by way of scaremongering & promoting confusion. 

[Frank Cannon 812]

4 hours ago, BHM said:

 

It’s my opinion that there is a lot of self promotion in the legal expertise field by way of scaremongering & promoting confusion. 

Plus one

[metcars 397]

6 hours ago, BHM said:

.....It’s my opinion that there is a lot of self promotion in the legal expertise field by way of scaremongering & promoting confusion. 

.....creating confusion, mixed messages and ambiguity does seem to trickle down from the top these days?

Edited March 1, 2021 by metcars

[LawJaw 50]

7 hours ago, BHM said:

.....especially as the satisfaction of the contract (the full payment) is AFTER the purchasers’ inspection/test etc. It’s no different to times before Covid in that respect. Not me, but I believe some used to refund the deposit & then take full payment to remove any uncertainty over a distance sale - personally I can see no reason why this cannot be implemented today should you so wish.

It’s my opinion that there is a lot of self promotion in the legal expertise field by way of scaremongering & promoting confusion. 

 

3 hours ago, Frank Cannon said:

Plus one

 

41 minutes ago, metcars said:

.....creating confusion, mixed messages and ambiguity does seem to trickle down from the top these days?

If answering your questions on this forum is the definition of 'self promotion' then we are guilty. However it would appear the confusion on this thread is from dealers who have listened to other dealers who are against test drives, making up their own version of the law, claiming they know of people who have been fined for it and saying it’s not moral, in an attempt to deter others from operating in a manner that suits their business. We have just reiterated what we have always said.

12 hours ago, Martin F said:

I agree with this, even after Law Jaw’s update.

Distance selling protection laws were brought into protect people who were buying goods online and subsequently found descriptions were not so accurate or some other technicality was not clear, all the sorts of things that a consumer could check/receive advice on when buying physically.

If the customer has now had chance to test drive the car, and hence inspect it how can this be classed as a distance sale under the intentions of the original law? 

Your points re Distance Sales is a valid argument and one we have discussed  in the team and with some clients. However, we see the results of consumer/dealer court cases every week and cannot rule out a judge voiding a non distance sale completed in lockdown (meaning full refund) based on the Covid rules of only being able to respond to remote orders. Ultimately, the distance sales regs have not been tested in a higher court and nor have the Covid rules. We give advice based on the law and our vast experience of motor trade cases but its obviously up to individual dealers how much of that advice they want to follow (or not as the case may be).

[trade vet 704]

1 hour ago, LawJaw said:

 

 

If answering your questions on this forum is the definition of 'self promotion' then we are guilty. However it would appear the confusion on this thread is from dealers who have listened to other dealers who are against test drives, making up their own version of the law, claiming they know of people who have been fined for it and saying it’s not moral, in an attempt to deter others from operating in a manner that suits their business. We have just reiterated what we have always said.

Your points re Distance Sales is a valid argument and one we have discussed  in the team and with some clients. However, we see the results of consumer/dealer court cases every week and cannot rule out a judge voiding a non distance sale completed in lockdown (meaning full refund) based on the Covid rules of only being able to respond to remote orders. Ultimately, the distance sales regs have not been tested in a higher court and nor have the Covid rules. We give advice based on the law and our vast experience of motor trade cases but its obviously up to individual dealers how much of that advice they want to follow (or not as the case may be).

Claims for mis selling during lockdown.That could be next,what a headache that could turn out to be if your paperwork is not precise.No defence if you have broken the law,void deal,full refund plus any consequential damages.

 

 

[BHM 994]

Dear me, it might be easier for the risk averse to just shut up shop. 

[trade vet 704]

1 hour ago, BHM said:

Dear me, it might be easier for the risk averse to just shut up shop. 

Those who got caught up in the PPI mis selling scandal will know what I mean.I still get letters from Claims Companies for deals in 2005 when we stopped offering PPI in 2001 ?

[David Horgan 564]

On 1/28/2021 at 8:06 PM, have a word with the wife said:

You only need one customer who is a carrier, and your dead, pissed off me of people not obeying .

Very nice Guy who was a part time delivery guy for a car parts motor factors near us was a victim two days ago , 

The whole place went down with Covid after one driver tested positive , 23 people 19 tested positive .

So they isolate as per the law as they should , Poor Phil has four days at home turns worse overnight , dead two days later in hospital . 

Fit bloke , 59 yrs old but ran or walked 10 miles every day with his two dogs . 

Obviously been caught from someone bringing it into the building , who knows who but hes gone now . 

 

Made me think when we come out of lock down , this virus wont be gone will it , Im still going to keep people at 2 meteres , out the office , on site but out the office, no family running round either just one person to see the car  , I know it can be done but just think that after lock down has done its even more important to keep ourselves SAFE . 

More important than now really . 

If Phil can die I'll say one thing ,any one of us could be next dealing with strangers .

 

[have a word with the wife 299]

5 minutes ago, David Horgan said:

Very nice Guy who was a part time delivery guy for a car parts motor factors near us was a victim two days ago , 

The whole place went down with Covid after one driver tested positive , 23 people 19 tested positive .

So they isolate as per the law as they should , Poor Phil has four days at home turns worse overnight , dead two days later in hospital . 

Fit bloke , 59 yrs old but ran or walked 10 miles every day with his two dogs . 

Obviously been caught from someone bringing it into the building , who knows who but hes gone now . 

 

Made me think when we come out of lock down , this virus wont be gone will it , Im still going to keep people at 2 meteres , out the office , on site but out the office, no family running round either just one person to see the car  , I know it can be done but just think that after lock down has done its even more important to keep ourselves SAFE . 

More important than now really . 

If Phil can die I'll say one thing ,any one of us could be next dealing with strangers .

 

Very Sorry to read this....

Future, its a totally different way of doing business,  we will never rid covid, and we have to be ready for the  "its okay ive had the vaccine" brigade, its now up to us to educate the buyers our new way, outside all the time, guess I am lucky, my stock will be outside, buyers tend to get giddy when viewing and want to look at and sit in "others"  they feel its there right because they're here to spend money, so, all cars locked, good signage, and verbal reminder of why they cant view multiple cars, which is a shame, 1, because I like to let people relax and look round and make a relaxed decision, and 2, I don't like "hounding customers " ( or talking to them  ).

Educating them to the fact that you are "covid secure" and the last dealer they went to or going to, might not be so keen to be so secure, and its a good sales point really ? And do I want you spreading other car dealers customers covid to my site?

Good one about "family running round" this is going to be particularly hard to govern, and will come with experience, test drives ? Shall l go back to, no, I have driven it for 20+ miles and full refund if on purchase your not happy ? Its worked before.

I guess bottom line is, and I've said it before " this is my business and its taken years to build up into a trusting business with repeat custom, if you don't want to be covid secure, then I don't want your money "?

Stay safe 

[BHM 994]

2 hours ago, have a word with the wife said:

Good one about "family running round" this is going to be particularly hard to govern,

It’s already started as a little bit of spring weather came over us last weekend. Just like the Crocuses & Daffodils, the bored, the deluded & the penniless all reared their heads in the sunshine wanting little trips out “To have a look at a few cars”. All were refused as I couldn’t detect a genuine enquiry out of any of them but one old bitch even came to my door almost demanding to be shown a car!

Apparently she had heard of the Coronavirus and had also heard of the Lockdown but reckons she was unaware what they meant, and anyway, she told me she’d visited four pitches already & had tested cars (bullshit). As I sent her packing she then asked about finance. Fuck me, not only was the old cow ignoring the lockdown, she seemed intent to visit every seller with a Focus in stock but didn’t even have the money to buy one. 

There are plenty of bored people out there at the moment. They’ve got sick of traipsing around the supermarkets, B&Q & have now had a couple of nice days at the beach licking ice creams - it’s now more important than ever before to enforce whatever rules/buyer qualification you employ.

Edited March 1, 2021 by BHM

[David Ayers 171]

It seems going forward we will all be paying Arthur Dealey a franchise fee!

[trade vet 704]

27 minutes ago, David Ayers said:

It seems going forward we will all be paying Arthur Dealey a franchise fee!

AD was ahead of the game and he encouraged others.There will be quite a few who have prospered by following his advice.He was good for this forum.

[Frank Cannon 812]

9 hours ago, trade vet said:

AD was ahead of the game and he encouraged others.There will be quite a few who have prospered by following his advice.He was good for this forum.

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