Rejecting car after work has been carried out

[Roweco 0]

Hi everyone, 

I’m new, not really a car dealer but ended up in a dilemma where I’m being assumed as one.

I’ve got a building company, I took a car in exchange for some work I did and sold the car on to recover the costs.

The invoice for the car stated ‘sold as seen without guarantee or warranty’ was tried tested etc. Before concluding the deal. 

The guy had had a heart attack so I offered as a goodwill gesture to drop it off (100mile round trip). He couldn’t drive it for a week or so but it sat on his drive ready for when he could. In this time he ran it out of fuel. He contacted me to say it’d gone wrong and needed to be looked at by his garage. Long storey short the garage put some fuel in it and it was fine although they insisted on giving the car a full service (The car was service the week before I dropped it off, so this definitely wasn’t needed). A full service, brake pads and a new battery later I’m being asked to fit the bill of £550. I offered £50 as a good will gesture under the understanding this was a full and final settlement as everything replaced were wearing parts. This was accepted by my buyer through gritted teeth.

One week on and I receive a further message saying the car now needs a cam chain replacing amongst a further load of sensors at an estimate of upwards of £500. 

I’ve called citizens advice who’ve been helpful in outlining he does have rights regarding this due to me selling from my business. 

I’ve asked him to take the car to an RAC approved garage to have a condition report carried out and we could use this as an impartial means to work from. 

The car is a 2009 petrol Audi A3 with 103,000 miles, 4 months MOT which sold for £3400 

My question: 

-Is a timing chain considered fair wear and tear? According to Audi they seem to be lifetime parts although they consider the lifetime of the car to be 8 years or 100,000- 150,000 miles (which it comes in excess of both of these).

-As work has been carried out (Service, potentially not filled up with enough oil etc.) would this void any claim he may have? 

-if I accept the car back should I make a deduction for fair usage? (It was on the 28th day he raised the second round of issues).

-The car was sold at less than the private recommended sale value, trade is £4600 private book price is £4000 (according to a report by Parker’s) so he has realised a massive saving yet hopes to still reap the benefits of buying from a trader, which I’m not.

At a little bit of a loose end, any advice? 

Thanks in advance!!

[Dan W 57]

Bit confused, you are not a trader you own a building company

how does this person know you own a business and and why does he assume you are in the car trade ?

Surely you've just sold a private car to him. although you delivering it 100 miles to him  would make that suspicious to anyone if you are just a private seller ?

 

[Jack Regan 116]

i would say  if your private you owe him nothing no matter what your day job is ....  did you get car put into your name and get log book back in your name , or did you fill in trade section of logbook when you took it as payment ?

[Mojo121 229]

Who’s the invoice made out from?

fail to see how because you’ve got a building firm and the car happened to be sold through your business you have to offer the same kind of protection to a customer as an actual car dealer.

[Roweco 0]

I took the car as payment for a building job, ie into the name of the company, sold it out of my building company which is why it’s caused an issue. School boy error I know. 

No word of I lie I have bent over backwards to try to do the right thing all the way through for this guy and he seems the give an inch take a mile type.

Invoice made out from building company to the guy as an individual. 

[Casper 272]

15 minutes ago, Roweco said:

I took the car as payment for a building job, ie into the name of the company, sold it out of my building company which is why it’s caused an issue. School boy error I know. 

No word of I lie I have bent over backwards to try to do the right thing all the way through for this guy and he seems the give an inch take a mile type.

Invoice made out from building company to the guy as an individual. 

Your still not a car dealer it was owned by a building company end off i would say whats to stop you buying a car for say an employee and putting in your business name doesn't make you a car dealer so wouldn't think you have to be treated as one 

[Roweco 0]

3 minutes ago, tradex said:

Hmm, so his reasoning is that you sold an asset from a building company, as business to private so he is covered by the CRA-2015, regardless of goods supplied....in a funny way I can see both sides to this. 

Again, the price of the car has jack to do with reducing customers rights, shoukd they apply here. 

I think we chief super TV on this one? 

I’m almost certain he is covered but my question is what are my obligations now? Obviously i’ve rejected his service costs and given a good will gesture as I know they’re classed as fair wear and tear regardless of the fact it was just serviced anyway.

As far as timing chain goes if it does end up being something the report throws up is it something I’m liable for or can he reject the car on these grounds etc.? 

The car was/is lovely, I wouldn’t have taken it if it wasn’t. From someone I know well who’s owned for around 3 years. 

That said with mileage and age considered is it fair to expect this type of maintenance/wear and tear to be present? Obviously it’s not fresh out of the showroom. 

[NOACROSS 414]

Welcome to our world old chap!  
 

I think you’re fine personally and should tell him to do his worse. You are not a motor trader, nor do you know anything about cars, or usually sell them. 
 

You could otherwise, in writing give a without prejudice offer to him in full and final settlement (to which he needs to reply in writing in agreement before shelling out). 
 

Small claims court action will take a year if that’s the route he wants to go. He should have bought a car from a retail establishment at full retail money if he wanted /expected guarantees and protection. 
 

Sounds like he could pop his clogs anyway at any time ;o). In all seriousness though, sounds like a load of old bluster to me from him. He’s trying to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear with your money and good nature. 
 

Good luck. Keep us posted. I too would be interested for our esteemed college @trade vet ‘s take. 
 

 

[Roweco 0]

Just now, tradex said:

He can't have it both ways though. If he treats it as a trade sale then he can't go spending dough on repairs without your say so or giving you the chance to repair. 

Question:- was the advert listed as a trade advert or private? 

I think it's a case of telling him to take professional counsel. 

His first question was ‘are you trade or private’ (should of seen it coming) I replied private as it’s my understanding that’s what I was but I’ve since been educated that because I was selling from my business it’s considered trade. 

[Roweco 0]

Dare I say it; Facebook market place, private advert, private sale, invoice raised by my company. 

[JA Trader 58]

2 minutes ago, Roweco said:

Dare I say it; Facebook market place, private advert, private sale, invoice raised by my company. 

I think that helps.

 

From what i see here this was a director of a company selling a car in a company name privately . Customer came back with some issues so you made a fair offer as you wasn't aware of any faults at the point of sale.

 

Now its time to tell him to swan off.

[Roweco 0]

2 minutes ago, tradex said:

Interesting one this. 

If I sell a motorcycle thru my business would I be expected to ensure it was fit for purpose?

If I sell a jacuzzi thru my business would I be expected to ensure it was fit for business? 

I'm thinking that CRA-2015 would cover anything that you have sold thru your business.....otherwise I may change my name to Norfolk Sheds.....ahh that would still be correct

Unfortunately for me I think you’re correct. 

Breaking news: I have the diagnosis

 

He has also sent a quote to replace the timing chain(over £1k) but I’m struggling to see what relates to the chain on the diagnosis?! 

Quote for repairs.

 

(obviously I’d take the car back and refund before paying out a single penny to this knob) 

[Dealer1 0]

As a business if you are selling anything it is covered  under the  CRA-2015

[Arfur Dealy 823]

17 minutes ago, Dealer1 said:

As a business if you are selling anything it is covered  under the  CRA-2015

This 100%.

OP, (welcome to the motor trade)  You sold an item acquired through your business and then sold it to a member of the public with an invoice is from your business, therefore you cannot dissolve his consumers rights. 

Buy it back, get him out of your life and then sell it privately. 

[awc1000 93]

sold for 3400, but how much did you allow for it in the payment debt?

best to refund, possibly minus some fare usage depending on mileage incurred, sleep is priceless.

[Roweco 0]

11 minutes ago, Arfur Dealy said:

This 100%.

OP, (welcome to the motor trade)  You sold an item acquired through your business and then sold it to a member of the public with an invoice is from your business, therefore you cannot dissolve his consumers rights. 

Buy it back, get him out of your life and then sell it privately. 

I think this is the way to go although if I can tell him to sod off because he’s not got significant enough reason to reject, that’s be more satisfying. My biggest question is is the timing chain a wear and tear item? Would he actually be able to reject the car on these grounds? 

 

Here’s one of the few explanations from a credible source I could find (euro car parts technical) 

4 minutes ago, awc1000 said:

sold for 3400, but how much did you allow for it in the payment debt?

best to refund, possibly minus some fare usage depending on mileage incurred, sleep is priceless.

True, true. 

Obviously I would assume he wouldn’t be untitled to a penny of his expenditure on service and brake pads etc. Etc.?

 

What would be considered fair deduction for use?  £50/week?! 

[awc1000 93]

5 minutes ago, Roweco said:

I think this is the way to go although if I can tell him to sod off because he’s not got significant enough reason to reject, that’s be more satisfying. My biggest question is is the timing chain a wear and tear item? Would he actually be able to reject the car on these grounds? 

 

Here’s one of the few explanations from a credible source I could find (euro car parts technical) 

True, true. 

Obviously I would assume he wouldn’t be untitled to a penny of his expenditure on service and brake pads etc. Etc.?

 

What would be considered fair deduction for use?  £50/week?! 

usage , fair deduction depends on miles, less than 500 than likely not much, offer a refund minus £x, he's unlikely to accept, but a compromise then often happens where he does not purse his additional servicing costs.

[awc1000 93]

1 minute ago, tradex said:

Refund within 30 days, no mileage reduction? 

not sure, never had to refund, i prep cars to death

op - any idea exactly how many miles he's done?

[Arfur Dealy 823]

19 minutes ago, Roweco said:

My biggest question is is the timing chain a wear and tear item? Would he actually be able to reject the car on these grounds? 

When you purchase a used item from a business, you expect it to be fit for purpose and described honestly. Some Timing Chain's wear badly BMW's for example, there may not be a scheduled change like a belt, but wear is wear.... There's isn't a definitive answer, you could have a slight rattle on start up and it'll still last a lifetime, it could equally break and destroy the engine.... A rattling chain isn't a "fault" its a car showing some wear, that's how I see it.... Used vehicles are sold with used parts, used tyres, etc....... Just get him out of your life and stick to the building trade  

Edited December 10, 2019 by Arfur Dealy

[RJEauto 18]

If he rejected the car under CRA within 30 days of purchase and you did refund him, CRA says full refund entitled (doesn't mean you can't offer less!) after 30 days it just says "fair usage charge".. we've only ever had 1 and charged 45p per mile 

[J.T 39]

14 minutes ago, tradex said:

Refund within 30 days, no mileage reduction? 

 

10 minutes ago, awc1000 said:

not sure, never had to refund, i prep cars to death

op - any idea exactly how many miles he's done?

You shouldn't charge for mileage, only usage i.e the amount of days he's had the car. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by J.T

[trade vet 703]

I don’t think that Roweco building company has any duty of care to refund .The sale was not carried out during the usual course of the business.Even though the car was sold off very cheaply,Roweco despite having little knowledge and no expertise in car sales showed great care by having it serviced to make sure it was legal and fit for the road.The buyer entered into a contract to buy it ‘ as seen,without warranty ‘ having understood the circumstances of the sale and because of this had it re-serviced without reference to the seller.

At least Roweco now understands what can happen in our business !

[A & S 20]

I would ask him to get the car back to you or you go there and get it and inspect it. He could be pulling a fast one. I would give his money back and sell it for more money Audi A3 sell. What size engine is it? Presume its petrol as it has a timing chain? 

[Arfur Dealy 823]

7 minutes ago, trade vet said:

I don’t think that Roweco building company has any duty of care to refund .The sale was not carried out during the usual course of the business.Even though the car was sold off very cheaply,Roweco despite having little knowledge and no expertise in car sales showed great care by having it serviced to make sure it was legal and fit for the road.The buyer entered into a contract to buy it ‘ as seen,without warranty ‘ having understood the circumstances of the sale and because of this had it re-serviced without reference to the seller.

At least Roweco now understands what can happen in our business !

TV, did you miss....

The invoice for the car stated ‘sold as seen without guarantee or warranty’, you cannot write that on a business invoice. 
 

You cannot dissolve a consumers rights. 

[Roweco 0]

Not sure on miles I would guess relatively low so probably not much to deduct.

Just had a full service prior to him buying which I can prove so the majority of work he carried out would be considered unnecessary? Also with a contribution already being accepted surely that puts that to bed?! Work was carried out before I had any info or chance to do it myself.