Complaint - customer demand return car

[EPV 631]

6 hours ago, BHM said:

First post & milking us for info? Come on, screw your heads on lads.

I’ll stick my head above the parapet & say I’m sick of these parasites.

Agreed, said the same a week ago. There was that lad with the Polo a couple of months ago and he got plenty of great advice here. Never to be seen again. 

 

2 hours ago, NOACROSS said:

So, are we now saying that anyone who wants to post needs to have downloaded the Doc? Free to read but subscribe to post?

For me it’s as above, download the document/Lawgistics, but where has this fault  ‘developing’ bit come from? 

If you’ve not pissed your punter off, I would get the junk back and fix it sharpish, or refund them and learn the first of many lessons to come.  

Developing as in happening pre sale, at the point of sale, post sale. Some things don’t just fail on cars, they are failing gradually in some cases. How you prove the fault was there at the point of sale isn’t always easy. Gearboxes for example, don’t just fail. Starter motors are either working, or they’re not. 

A judge could easily be convinced that a head gasket was failing at the point of sale despite showing no physical signs at the point of sale. 

That’s if we’re talking court proceedings here of course. I doubt that would ever happen on a car like this. 

4 hours ago, David Ayers said:

Unfortunately this is wrong.

within the first 30 days you cannot make any deductions 

Are you sure about that? 

Ignore that last bit just seen the other post. 

[stockedup! 63]

Money back and keep some money in the tank for such times!

[Area 51 33]

2 hours ago, David Horgan said:

Bang on there 

Can only agree.. What if the Billies are reading this and getting ideas... Just saying like & me probably me being cynical

 

[Dave2302 387]

2 hours ago, David Ayers said:

To be fair to the OP if you go by the word of the CRA this is in muddy waters.

In the first 30 days it is up to the customer to prove there was a fault present at time of sale if he wishes to use his short term right to reject.

The customer has stated the head gasket has failed due to the water pump going. So has admitted this problem occurred after the sale. 

The OP has also paid £100 replacing “some oil filter ring” which if it’s the bit I’m thinking of comes with a new oil filter for £10. 

Saying all that I would get it back and inspected. Refund if it has gone and move on.

 

I agree, sounds to me like the knob jockey billy had the water pump spring a leak and roasted it !!

That is consequential damage by neglect.

Personally, (not that I'd have sold that turd in the first place), but I'd get it back, pay and fix the Water Pump, and then tell billy the HG is down to him as it is consequential damage through being run out of coolant !!

[Dave2302 387]

In actual fact, the OP doesn't know what is wrong with it, as he hasn't got it back to base yet !!

Plentymost mis diagnosis and also just plain liars out there

[EPV 631]

Just now, tradex said:

I'm usually one for a refund, unless something smells and this does. Here, we have a simple water pump failure, ignored and now a head gasket. 

..... and many water pumps fail (they all do at some point) but they don't all take the engine with it.

They can only leak, or fail to push coolant around. A leak, well the header tank goes down, huge leak as in a pump falling off is improbable.

Granted some plastic impellors can fail and not function (Beemers were very good at that) but even then unless ignored they gave warning. 

A waterpump can be sound at point of sale and fail at a later point. 

And yes, it may have an over temp light but isn't set at the point at which hg failure start. Some have low coolant level alarms too. 

NB this is the reason we pressure check cooling systems on our PDI, it catches potentially costly leaks n weeps. We assume customers are idiots and don't check levels, which most are having zero mechanical sympathy. 

I too also do a pressure test on the cooling system to pick up things like this. Well, my garage does. 

[Dave2302 387]

Pressure test is excellent part of PDI, I don't do every one, but I stick a fair few miles on'em first, and if one uses coolant it gets fixed

[It's me 615]

ive said it before but will say it again i wont do pressure checks purely because a lot of cars at 15 psi might just blow the radiator

i prefer check level go for mot let them run it to very hot before they stick that sticky thing up its bum,make sure system doesnt go into meltdown

recheck level back at base once everything cool

tick my pdi ,satisfied all system good

[Row 71]

Another best test is 1 hour drive home from auction, often think this is better than having it delivered for the reason of checking things out.

[David Ayers 171]

5 hours ago, tradex said:

CRA2015 section 24, subsection 10. 

You are quoting right to price reduction or final right to reject.

We we talking about the 30 day short term right to reject.

Section 20 subsection 10 “ To the extent that the consumer paid money under the contract, the consumer is entitled to recieve back the same amount of money.”

This is a good article. 

It may be of help to help educate customers with unreasonable expectations.

https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/rejecting-a-car/

 

[metcars 397]

2 hours ago, Row said:

Another best test is 1 hour drive home from auction, often think this is better than having it delivered for the reason of checking things out.

The Baptism of fire!

[Arfur Dealy 823]

2 hours ago, Row said:

Another best test is 1 hour drive home from auction, often think this is better than having it delivered for the reason of checking things out.

Not for me, delivery on every motor. I've spent my time waiting for recovery in the rain on a Motorway, its a scary place to be....

[MrC 142]

13 hours ago, David Ayers said:

Unfortunately this is wrong.

within the first 30 days you cannot make any deductions 

Like the man in the orthopaedic shoes, I stand to be corrected 

[Auto Evo 0]

Thank You for advice brilliant piece of knowledge. 

Can you help me with another matter. 

How do I handle whole complaint procedure?

1. Do I ask customer to do it in writing?

If so then i respond to the letter? What is industry standard procedure?

2. I personally prefer to  have everything in writing before I hand cash out back to customer. 

Can you tell what is the best route please?

[Dave2302 387]

14 hours ago, boring dave said:

ive said it before but will say it again i wont do pressure checks purely because a lot of cars at 15 psi might just blow the radiator

i prefer check level go for mot let them run it to very hot before they stick that sticky thing up its bum,make sure system doesnt go into meltdown

recheck level back at base once everything cool

tick my pdi ,satisfied all system good

 That's the whole point of the pressure test !!

If it bursts the Radiator or anything else springs a leak then it's fucked and needs doing !! I always Pressure Test at 5psi over cap pressure btw  

Yeah, ok if it bursts the Rad it might cost you £200, but if the Rad bursts on Billy it will likely cost you an Engine 

[EPV 631]

38 minutes ago, tradex said:

(10)No deduction may be made if the final right to reject is exercised in the first 6 months (see subsection (11)), unless—

(a)the goods consist of a motor vehicle, or

Pretty conclusive to me. It would be unreasonable to expect a billy to rack up 2,000 miles in 25 days and then get the purchase price back should they be in a position to obtain a refund. It would make it difficult to prove the fault was there at the point of sale if they’d driven it 2,000 miles anyway but if we’re examining the letter of the law then I think you can deduct for usage from mile one. 

[David Ayers 171]

1 hour ago, tradex said:

(10)No deduction may be made if the final right to reject is exercised in the first 6 months (see subsection (11)), unless—

(a)the goods consist of a motor vehicle, or

H Tradex 

I appreciate that if you have read my post above about the different parts of the Act and the article by the car expert and still think we are both wrong then I'm not going to change your mind.

But for the benefit of anyone else coming across this thread in the future then I suggest they read these articles.

From What Car https://www.whatcar.com/news/your-legal-rights-if-something-goes-wrong-with-your-car/n3307

From Lawgistics http://www.lawgistics.co.uk/read-news/877#sthash.VRndOjKS.dpbs

From Honest John https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/legal-motoring-advice/2017-08/everything-you-need-to-know-about-your-right-to-reject-a-car/

Or just Google it. There are no end of articles out there.

I've finished my popcorn now.

[It's me 615]

2 hours ago, Dave2302 said:

 That's the whole point of the pressure test !!

If it bursts the Radiator or anything else springs a leak then it's fucked and needs doing !! I always Pressure Test at 5psi over cap pressure btw  

Yeah, ok if it bursts the Rad it might cost you £200, but if the Rad bursts on Billy it will likely cost you an Engine 

not for me

im a motor trader not a garage looking to find a fault

if i put whatever the cap is designed to blow off at on a lot of cars you know as well as me that its more likely you will blow the radiator

think hyundai

aygo

micra

if i think there might be a problem i will then get out my sykes pickyour nose tool

hell most traders wont even know what a mitivac is

[David Ayers 171]

Hi Tradex

You are saying that 

(10)No deduction may be made if the final right to reject is exercised in the first 6 months (see subsection (11)), unless—

(a)the goods consist of a motor vehicle, or

Which for months 2-6 is correct. This is the Final Right To Reject. Section 24 of the CRA 2015

However for the first 30 days, the Short Term Right To Reject has no such provision. The OP sold the car less than 30 days ago. So if the customer decides to sucessfully exercise his Short Term Right To Reject the OP can not make any deduction for use. Even if he has done 2000 miles. Section 20 of the CRA2015.

 

Refunds under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 - deductions for use by customer

As we have been advising, under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, a customer has two types of rights with regard to refunds if there is a fault with the vehicle. The first is the 30 day ‘short-term right to reject’ and the second is the ‘final right to reject’ – more on that next time. 

Under the short-term right to reject, the customer appears to be entitled to a full refund or as the Act says “the consumer is entitled to receive back the same amount of money”.

So under the short term right to reject, even if the customer has had the vehicle for 29 days of the 30 day period, they appear to be entitled to a full refund. 

Interestingly, car dealers do get a special mention with regard to refunds under the final right to reject.  Normally, a retailer cannot deduct any amount for the use the consumer has made of a product if the refund is made in the first six months. However, in the case of a motor vehicle, a deduction can be made for the use the customer has had of the car. Now not to get too excited, this does not automatically mean that the customer only has to accept the trade value at the time of the refund but, there is certainly room to negotiate although any final decision would be up to the courts to decide if necessary.  

As a couple of points, refunds should be made “without undue delay” and certainly no more than 14 days after the agreement to refund and they should be made using the same means of payment as the customer used so a credit payment = a credit card refund. And no, you cannot impose a fee for the refund on the consumer. 

If you want to learn more on the Consumer Rights Act, you can listen to our recent three part special which is now available in one podcast as Episode 33 of the Car Dealer Podcast.

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by David Ayers

[EPV 631]

This is something of a moot point here.

The short term right to reject can only be exercised if there is a fault with the goods (fault as defined by the CRA) and the consumer can prove the fault was there at the point of sale. In which case, if it WAS there at the point of sale and it is a fault that renders the vehicle as not fit for purpose etc etc then the consumer couldn't possibly have driven the car more than a few miles (say 50 maximum) before the fault manifested itself sufficiently to make the can not fit for purpose etc. So any refund would be buttons, £25 or something.

If, the consumer managed to put 500 miles on the car then there would be sufficient doubt as to whether the car had the fault at the point of sale, in which case the consumer isn't entitled to the short term right to reject and instead a repair should be offered.

[David Ayers 171]

1 hour ago, EPV said:

This is something of a moot point here.

The short term right to reject can only be exercised if there is a fault with the goods (fault as defined by the CRA) and the consumer can prove the fault was there at the point of sale. In which case, if it WAS there at the point of sale and it is a fault that renders the vehicle as not fit for purpose etc etc then the consumer couldn't possibly have driven the car more than a few miles (say 50 maximum) before the fault manifested itself sufficiently to make the can not fit for purpose etc. So any refund would be buttons, £25 or something.

If, the consumer managed to put 500 miles on the car then there would be sufficient doubt as to whether the car had the fault at the point of sale, in which case the consumer isn't entitled to the short term right to reject and instead a repair should be offered. 

 

Let's face it. The whole act is a muddle, especially concerning used cars.

 

 

[It's me 615]

16 minutes ago, tradex said:

Do you know how to do a coolant leak Dave

i sure do

and i wont use that shite they promote as 'seal all' at the car shows/local factors bout €30 a shot

idont fix what aint broken

[Dave2302 387]

All I'm sayin is I'd far rather be the one to find the dodgy radiator before I sell the car than the billy, who drives it to destruction and costs me an engine.

I stand by what I said, if the rad bursts it was fucked anyway !!

And agree, a big no no to leak fix shite it will just clog up all sorts of modern cooling system components.

[Area 51 33]

1 hour ago, Dave2302 said:

1 hour ago, Dave2302 said:

All I'm sayin is I'd far rather be the one to find the dodgy radiator before I sell the car than the billy, who drives it to destruction and costs me an engine.

I stand by what I said, if the rad bursts it was fucked anyway !!

And agree, a big no no to leak fix shite it will just clog up all sorts of modern cooling system components.

 

+1  Dave

Can I just add.. "All I'm sayin is I'd far rather be the one to find the dodgy "ANYTHING" before I sell the car than the billy, who drives it to destruction and costs me an engine.

All customers act F8ckin stoopid once there is a problem; a few carefully chosen questions might extract the truth and circumstances, however many are getting more savvi when it comes to the game of complaining.. bloody UK national pastime.. Best, as above, DALPO (do all possible) to identify problems and fix em.. always buy expecting your arse to be exposed.. when it aint.. its a good day all round...  

[Dave2302 387]

13 hours ago, Area 51 said:

+1  Dave

Can I just add.. "All I'm sayin is I'd far rather be the one to find the dodgy "ANYTHING" before I sell the car than the billy, who drives it to destruction and costs me an engine.

All customers act F8ckin stoopid once there is a problem; a few carefully chosen questions might extract the truth and circumstances, however many are getting more savvi when it comes to the game of complaining.. bloody UK national pastime.. Best, as above, DALPO (do all possible) to identify problems and fix em.. always buy expecting your arse to be exposed.. when it aint.. its a good day all round...  

Absolutely 100% , Couldn't agree more.

Part of the reason I don't get many comebacks is because there is always something needs fetching from Inverness, (120 mile round trip from me), so apart from my PDI, 90% of my Cars do that trip before getting sold .....................

I always look at each Car with the question "Would I be happy for my Kids / GF to drive it from here to Kent and back ??" and if the answer is yes then it is ready for sale 

I don't sell the Volume some guys do, 6 a month, so it works for me, I know it's not practical for guys down south, jeez it would probably take you a week to drive just one Car 120 miles with all the traffic  

Fact is though, with my situation, a trip to IV, a trip to Kyle for MOT Test, and a run to the Take Away / Shops and they have all done around 200 miles before I sell 'em