CRA - Conclusive Action Required Legally

[Okay dokay 3]

I read so many differing points on this and have one at the moment - vehicle driven for 3 months, no faults at POS, vehicle is 14 years old and covered 120k miles and develops Auto gearbox fault - billy been quoted £2500 to replace box, only paid £2800 for said vehicle (BMW 5 series Auto)

 

now legally, If fault not present at POS and can be proven as such - what are our legal responsibilities? Surely we should not be expected to fix? 

 

Surely a punter paying one tenth of a vehicles new price, that is in the twilight of its operational life and covered starship miles should be expected to go wrong one day?

Please only respond on what you know to be legally factual - and not opinion.

[It's me 615]

i will respond

if the vehicle at pos was not showing a fault at pos and this was in your inspection sheet

you took the prospective customer on a good test drive and was happy with how the car performed

you got him to sign no faults in the pre sales handover

and now 3 months later the gearbox plays up thats clearly wear and tear

try and get an independent inspection  carried out once you have receipt of the lba,be aware this might get rejected by the court on cost issues

do you need to fight it

yes

[MrC 142]

14 years old 120k miles.

 

Bye

[Arfur Dealy 823]

Dear Mr Customer, the CRA2015 is designed to protect buyers and sellers equally. Wear and tear is specifically excluded. 

As the owner of a 14 year old BMW (11 years past it’s warranty) you should expect wear and tear. It is your responsibility for the repair and maintenance of your vehicle. 

OkayDokay, if you give an inch they’ll take a mile. Stonewall them. 

The way I look at it is very simple.... If the broken or worn part has been used many years past the manufacturers guaranteed period then quite simply it’s “wear n tear”

[BHM 994]

1 hour ago, Arfur Dealy said:

Dear Mr Customer, the CRA2015 is designed to protect buyers and sellers equally. Wear and tear is specifically excluded. 

As the owner of a 14 year old BMW (11 years past it’s warranty) you should expect wear and tear. It is your responsibility for the repair and maintenance of your vehicle. 

OkayDokay, if you give an inch they’ll take a mile. Stonewall them. 

The way I look at it is very simple.... If the broken or worn part has been used many years past the manufacturers guaranteed period then quite simply it’s “wear n tear”

+1, especially the highlighted sentence - once you allow yourself to be drawn into discussions it’s harder to back away.

 

7 hours ago, Okay dokay said:

now legally, If fault not present at POS and can be proven as such - what are our legal responsibilities? Surely we should not be expected to fix? 

Correct. They’ve had 3 months of trouble free motoring (I assume has an extra few thousand miles - if it’s been parked-up & has a 100 miles on it then it’s a different proposition), this shows the car was & has been fault free and was at point of sale. 

[Mark101 536]

Was it after 3 months or within 3 months and what warranty did you offer the guy?

No biggie, worst case car back - refund minus usage charge at 50ppm (and hope he's done close to 6k miles)

[MSP Motors 39]

This gets covered so many times, but..... What is wear and tear? Internals of a box. And don't get me started on the customer agreeing there was no faults at point of sale by signing a PDI as it's just a lot of bollocks that a lot in this forum seem to think is a golden ticket..... It's not.

Now having said that..... My warranty period is 3 months, and if the said claim falls outside 3 months I would not want to be paying for this old spunker to get fixed. The CRA however makes no reference to warranty's only fair wear and tear and fit for purpose, which as everyone knows is subjective. If that happened to me, I'd stand my ground, explain it falls outside the warranty cover of the used vehicle without once making reference to a pointless PDI (in this warranty claim) that doesn't reference the internals of a gearbox anyways and move on. Most of the time the customer will understand this.

If 9 months down the line you find yourself in a small claims situation, don't be surprised if you come out on the losing side tho.

 

[andymc1973 199]

We badly need test cases the magistrate can reference 

[MOTORS 25]

Depends how many miles it has covered in 3 months. 

If you have a signed PDI showing no faults (which states next to customer signature "I confirm that I have test driven and inspected the vehicle and there are no apparent faults, other than those listed above") the fault was not present when you sold the car. We scan every car 3 times (at purchase, after 100 miles and at point of sale) and give copies of the scans to the customer showing no fault codes and in this case no transmission faults.

If the car shows an error code now, then the fault has developed since purchase.

I would recommend Lawgistics. We have a contract with them and can discuss such matters to decide what the best course of action is.

 

[Mark101 536]

1 hour ago, MSP Motors said:

This gets covered so many times, but..... What is wear and tear? Internals of a box. And don't get me started on the customer agreeing there was no faults at point of sale by signing a PDI as it's just a lot of bollocks that a lot in this forum seem to think is a golden ticket..... It's not.

Now having said that..... My warranty period is 3 months, and if the said claim falls outside 3 months I would not want to be paying for this old spunker to get fixed. The CRA however makes no reference to warranty's only fair wear and tear and fit for purpose, which as everyone knows is subjective. If that happened to me, I'd stand my ground, explain it falls outside the warranty cover of the used vehicle without once making reference to a pointless PDI (in this warranty claim) that doesn't reference the internals of a gearbox anyways and move on. Most of the time the customer will understand this.

If 9 months down the line you find yourself in a small claims situation, don't be surprised if you come out on the losing side tho.

 

I could not agree more.

For me, if it fails within 3 months/3,000 miles  (except tyres or breakage due to an accident) I'm gonna fix it - that's my self funded warranty and I would stand by that.  >3 Months, I will take my chances and do everything to help besides paying.

3 minutes ago, MOTORS said:

We scan every car 3 times (at purchase, after 100 miles and at point of sale)

How on earth can you drive every car 100 miles?  for me, that would be 1500 miles per month on top of sourcing, collecting, prepping, advertising, selling, warranty repairs oh and sleep - not realsitic.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Mark101

[trade vet 704]

43 minutes ago, andymc1973 said:

We badly need test cases the magistrate can reference 

Magistrates...Have you seen some of these Magistrates lately ,they are like cardboard cut outs.

[Mark101 536]

12 minutes ago, MOTORS said:

If the car shows an error code now, then the fault has developed since purchase.

Who cares whether the fault was there at POS or developed since purchase?  Of course the fault developed since purchase, that's the whole point of a warranty and probably the reason a customer bought from a dealer instead of chancing their luck by buying privately.

Is it just me, as responsible dealers (whom most here seem to be) - we ensure there are no faults at POS (unless noted and customer informed) and we honour our warranties within 3 months (or whatever term we agree).

Why are we talking about getting out of fixing things (within warranty).  It might be a cheap car but to some people, spending £2k is the equivalent to some of us spending £20k.

[MOTORS 25]

4 minutes ago, Mark101 said:

How on earth can you drive every car 100 miles?  for me, that would be 1500 miles per month on top of sourcing, collecting, prepping, advertising, selling, warranty repairs oh and sleep - not realsitic.

I collect all cars myself. Inspect, test drive and diagnostically scan at point of purchase. I collate the scans from point of purchase, at workshop and at point of sale. Error free scans showing chassis number, mileage (sometimes 300 miles driven), dates and times are very helpful to me in proving that the car was fault free during the time with our business and was sold as such. 

We do all of our prep work ourselves including full bodyshop. We use a third party workshop for MOT, servicing and PDI inspection and diagnostic scanning.

The system works very well for us. When we have a complaint the fact that we have documented diagnostic scans showing mileages, dates and times as well as a 138 point PDI check sheet, helps us do defend our position and ultimately come to a mutually beneficial outcome.

[MSP Motors 39]

The system is completely flawed in my opinion, with a ma

19 minutes ago, MOTORS said:

Depends how many miles it has covered in 3 months. 

If you have a signed PDI showing no faults (which states next to customer signature "I confirm that I have test driven and inspected the vehicle and there are no apparent faults, other than those listed above") the fault was not present when you sold the car. We scan every car 3 times (at purchase, after 100 miles and at point of sale) and give copies of the scans to the customer showing no fault codes and in this case no transmission faults.

If the car shows an error code now, then the fault has developed since purchase.

I would recommend Lawgistics. We have a contract with them and can discuss such matters to decide what the best course of action is.

 

The customer is not an expert. How can they determine the gearbox isn't fucked by signing a PDI?

Without stripping down the gearbox before you sell the car and getting it independently inspected, you can not prove this

[Mark101 536]

2 minutes ago, MOTORS said:

I collect all cars myself. Inspect, test drive and diagnostically scan at point of purchase.

 We use a third party workshop for diagnostic scanning.

That might be the difference, you say we whereas I am I (by my self).

Who does you scanning, I'm confused 

[Rory RSC 596]

Interesting points Mark.

Personally we prep our cars very highly and I would say nearly all the cars that come back during a warranty period sure as hell did not go out like that. Most recent I can think of is a Ford Galaxy where the fuel pump has packed in after 2 weeks. How could that have been prevented without the aid of mystic meg and her crystal ball. Anyway rather than say well PDI suggests its just packed in tough shit we say bring it back lets get it fixed.

We talk the talk and big up the after care we offer so when stuff goes during the warranty period it gets sorted. If its outside of that we don't.

[MOTORS 25]

3 minutes ago, Mark101 said:

Who cares whether the fault was there at POS or developed since purchase?  Of course the fault developed since purchase, that's the whole point of a warranty and probably the reason a customer bought from a dealer instead of chancing their luck by buying privately.

Is it just me, as responsible dealers (whom most here seem to be) - we ensure there are no faults at POS (unless noted and customer informed) and we honour our warranties within 3 months (or whatever term we agree).

Why are we talking about getting out of fixing things (within warranty).  It might be a cheap car but to some people, spending £2k is the equivalent to some of us spending £20k.

We offer a 12 month / 6000 mile warranty with every car we sell included in the price (self funded Lawgistics admin). Out of 1557 warranties issued we have only had a handful of claims totalling just over £2500. This is because we prep and check our cars so well. If a fault occurs after purchase which is a covered item them of course we repair. We have often carried out goodwill repairs for non warranty items. It's the non- warranty items which you reply upon the PDI and scans for.

The point is we DO care whether the fault was there at the POS. It is upon us a dealers to prove that the fault was not there at point of sale. If you don't have a good PDI system backed up by diagnostic scans you are not conducting your own due diligence and have no hope of defending any unreasonable or incorrect claim.

I posted a coupe of weeks ago about a Honda S2000 which broke a con-rod and customer tried to claim for a new engine. An independent inspection showed that the engine had been over-revved at point of failure by the valves hitting the piston tops. The independent report, our PDI and scans enabled us to reject the claim as damage was caused by customer. 

[MSP Motors 39]

I go back to how do you prove the gearbox wasn't shagged at point of sale without either spending a lot of money getting it inspected after the event..... Or spending the same amount Inspecting before the car goes out? A customer signed PDI is completely meaningless in this scenario.

[MOTORS 25]

14 minutes ago, MSP Motors said:

The system is completely flawed in my opinion, with a ma

The customer is not an expert. How can they determine the gearbox isn't fucked by signing a PDI?

Without stripping down the gearbox before you sell the car and getting it independently inspected, you can not prove this

 

12 minutes ago, Mark101 said:

That might be the difference, you say we whereas I am I (by my self).

Who does you scanning, I'm confused 

Customer signs to say that the car drove well without fault. Diagnostic scan printouts show no faults in gearbox (there are many codes which can show). Granted if a bearing or gear is worn it wont show on a scan. The point is that the things which do show on scans can be fixed before sale. Or if a fault develops say with a mechatronic unit, that would have shown on the scan before sale and has therefore gone wrong after sale.  

If there is a fault with a car we show the fault code on the scan print, the repair invoice and further scans to show that the fault was fixed.

I have a Snap On Solus Ultra. I carry it with me when I buy cars all over the country. The workshop also have a Snap On unit which they use locally. I collate the scans from both scanners to evidence that the car was fault free when we bought it and when we sold it.

The system works well for me and customers like it.

[Mark101 536]

1 minute ago, MOTORS said:

I have a Snap On Solus

I and the 3rd party garage both use the Snap On Solus, a great piece of kit but even that cannot go as deep as full dealer level diagnostics, so whilst you clearly make every feasible effort, it isn't fool proof and like you say, it won't pick up a worn bearing, so a moot point in this particluar OP.

 

[MSP Motors 39]

I like it, you do some basic checks before the car gets sold. A quick scan and test drive is about all you can do. However, to suggest these basic checks absolve you from and warranty from a failed gearbox is ludicrous. The customer signature to say there was no issues at POS, again is pointless. 

Just imagine suggesting to a judge that the reason you didn't help the customer was because you scanned the car 3 months previous and the customer signed for it!

I'd suggest what you are doing is just the norm. You get a car in, inspect for faults, fix the faults then sell on?

[tradegirl 112]

41 minutes ago, Mark101 said:

 It might be a cheap car but to some people, spending £2k is the equivalent to some of us spending £20k.

I've often thought this. What we regard as a £1500-2000 cheap run around, for others it's their hard earned money. No reason why they should get a problematic car or that they get given a filthy car because it's "cheap"

[MOTORS 25]

3 minutes ago, MSP Motors said:

I like it, you do some basic checks before the car gets sold. A quick scan and test drive is about all you can do. However, to suggest these basic checks absolve you from and warranty from a failed gearbox is ludicrous. The customer signature to say there was no issues at POS, again is pointless. 

Just imagine suggesting to a judge that the reason you didn't help the customer was because you scanned the car 3 months previous and the customer signed for it!

I'd suggest what you are doing is just the norm. You get a car in, inspect for faults, fix the faults then sell on?

3 minutes ago, MSP Motors said:

I haven't suggested that the checks and scans absolve me from any warranty claim from a failed gearbox at all. 

[Dealer 54]

3 minutes ago, tradegirl said:

I've often thought this. What we regard as a £1500-2000 cheap run around, for others it's their hard earned money. No reason why they should get a problematic car or that they get given a filthy car because it's "cheap"

No reason why they should get a problematic car i agree however expectations differ between their "new" car and an actual brand new vehicle. Often the stuff such as this may be just ten percent of its equivalent new price however punter still believes it should be as new. Most of these people have unrealistic expectations and think that as it's been bought from a forecourt they can bring it back no matter what happens. 

[mike101 8]

Under the old SGA, faults like this were deemed to be ‘latent’ for the first 6 months and the seller had to prove otherwise. After that the burden of proof reversed and the buyer had to prove. Not sure how this sits within CRA?

As normal a lot will depend how reasonable (or not) the punter is.