Trading standards

[DelRoy 0]

So got a lovely letter today from trading standards about a vehicle which we had sold in 2016. A 2006 BMW which we had traded in and sold on as a trade sale. The car was traded into us with 135k miles which the purchase invoice states and sold out on our sales invoice with 135k miles. All our cars are HPI’d at time of purchase and came back clear. Now showing as a mileage discrepancy that it has been clocked about 80k miles in 2012 but wasn’t showing on our HPI check at the time we traded the vehicle in. Now trading standards are on wanting an interview. Where do we stand with this one as we have a purchase and sales invoice with the mileage stated and the car has clearly been clocked in 2012 at some point as this is now what the HPI check shows some 4 years before the car was in our possession. Surely we can not be held responsible for this as the car was not showing any discrepancies on the HPI when we traded the car in. 

[Arfur Dealy 823]

It’s all about due diligence. Provide TS with your report showing no mileage discrepancy and your PX purchase invoice signed by the seller confirming the mileage is correct. End of.

[DelRoy 0]

We do not keep copies of HPI reports sadly but can provide purchase invoice of the car signed by myself and the guy who traded the car in. Surely this would be enough. 

[andymc1973 199]

I think mileage issues are a hot potato with TS, possible refund 

[SC Derby 259]

What do the old MOTs say? 

[James Bush 95]

I’d agree, all about due diligence. If you’ve got a paperwork trial to show you’ve checked everything and you found nothing suspicious then you’ll be ok. PX form that customer signs to say it’s correct, MOT history with no jumps in mileage, condition of the car (I presume there’s nothing to suggest it was clocked) and the fact somebodies been driving it around for the last couple of years without any worries. I’d also ask to see what evidence they have to suggest it’s clocked, sometimes obvious MOT input errors flag it up as a discrepancy. 

Edited May 9, 2018 by James Bush

[Rory RSC 596]

I would check all this stuff myself and if its an error somewhere then prove it and fight my corner. If I had slipped up and one had slipped the net then don't beat yourself up we can all make mistakes from time to time. 

Irrespective of what you have written regarding trade sale on an invoice if it was a retail sale I would apologise to customer take the car back and just move on with life. 

If its a trade sale to an actual trader who sells cars then I highly doubt they would be onto trading standards. 

[trade vet 703]

Nothing to worry about.They are probably just establishing the chain since it was clocked.Just give them a copy of your sale and purchase invoice........If they ask any difficult questions ,just tell them you wil have to get back to them.

[David Ayers 171]

" Nothing to worry about " I would disagree, having had experience of this a long time ago.

In trading standards eyes unless you have done a mileage investigation. You are in trouble. Just because you didn't clock it doesn't make you innocent of selling a clocked car.

They might not be able to prove who clocked it but a conviction is a conviction. It's all about the numbers.

BTW I don't do investigations either so I'm not preaching from a high horse. 

Sold a car to a private customer as a trade sale. Again trouble.

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by David Ayers

[Trident 24]

10 hours ago, DelRoy said:

We do not keep copies of HPI reports sadly but can provide purchase invoice of the car signed by myself and the guy who traded the car in. Surely this would be enough. 

WHAT!!! why wouldn't you keep a copy of the HPI?? always, always keep a copy of all paperwork... example of reasons why... bought car, sold car, some months later, debt collector onto us for outstanding finance, explained it was Experian clear, he disputed - produced proof.... In all his years chasing he had never had an outstanding finance debt with a clear experian - left us alone...

One year post sale for another vehicle, customer gets in touch, has written off his vehicle, bought it with a hefty discount, wants his gap insurance to pay out 'original' sales price, not the actual discounted one.  We found the advertised price from the historical section in dealerportal but he was a persistant b...gg..r so we did an invoice showing the original purchase price and the discount given showing the actual price he paid. Who knows whether Gap paid out, but i doubt it, nevertheless, he was placated.  We now keep a copy of the sales flyer, it records price and spec, in case of future queries..

[NOACROSS 414]

Can't you go in to your Hpi history and find it? 

[MattR 177]

The clear HPI report would be what you need. I think you say that it was clear when you checked it in 2016, and that now it shows that it was clocked in 2012? And have you sold it to a trader or to a private individual as a 'trade sale'? TS may just want to go through the trail, they may want to do more. But, having had a visit from them a few years ago, the picture they build up of you during your chat is likely to influence your future dealings with them. So get all the advertised mileages on your forecourt up to date, don't advertise something with 50000 miles if its done 50551. they want accuracy. And get all your paperwork in order so they can see all your cars advertised have current MOT's.

 Dont advertise with full service history unless theres a stamp there for every year (unless the manufacturer says differently)I'd also suggest a quick check that they all start and no bulbs have blown. If thy think that your cars which are currently available for sale are all good, they will look at you far more positively and listen to your side of the story. 

[Earunder 69]

42 minutes ago, Matt Reid said:

The clear HPI report would be what you need. I think you say that it was clear when you checked it in 2016, and that now it shows that it was clocked in 2012? And have you sold it to a trader or to a private individual as a 'trade sale'? TS may just want to go through the trail, they may want to do more. But, having had a visit from them a few years ago, the picture they build up of you during your chat is likely to influence your future dealings with them. So get all the advertised mileages on your forecourt up to date, don't advertise something with 50000 miles if its done 50551. they want accuracy. And get all your paperwork in order so they can see all your cars advertised have current MOT's.

 Dont advertise with full service history unless theres a stamp there for every year (unless the manufacturer says differently)I'd also suggest a quick check that they all start and no bulbs have blown. If thy think that your cars which are currently available for sale are all good, they will look at you far more positively and listen to your side of the story. 

Spot on.

My dealing with them have all been above board.  They want to see a paper trail.  In this event, with a mileage discrepancy, no paperwork, no HPi, and no NMR you're going to be giving a full refund I'm afraid.

[trade vet 703]

5 hours ago, Earunder said:

Spot on.

My dealing with them have all been above board.  They want to see a paper trail.  In this event, with a mileage discrepancy, no paperwork, no HPi, and no NMR you're going to be giving a full refund I'm afraid.

Why would Delroy be refunding a Trader when he has a signed for mileage from his customer and his sales invoice to the Trader states the same mileage.Unless I am missing something,If anyone needs a partial refund for the 80k haircut,surely it is Delroys customer being the victim and not the Trader.

[Earunder 69]

2 minutes ago, trade vet said:

Why would Delroy be refunding a Trader when he has a signed for mileage from his customer and his sales invoice to the Trader states the same mileage.Unless I am missing something,If anyone needs a partial refund for the 80k haircut,surely it is Delroys customer being the victim and not the Trader.

Indeed it would be the customer who purchased the vehicle where the paper trail stops ahead of.  If it were a private sale, then the onus falls to the next responsible party, something that a private seller is not.  If the paper trail prior to Delroy taking in the vehicle is evident, such as it is plain to see in black and white on a simple MOT history report, and Delroy is the next responsible party (being a trader) and he has not done his due diligence then of course it still comes and falls onto him whether he passed to trade or not.

I'd love to be wrong, but that's my understanding of how this will go.

 

[SC Derby 259]

Can Delroy confirm if the old MOTs show any discrepancies and whether this was checked at time of sale? 

[Arfur Dealy 823]

2 hours ago, trade vet said:

Why would Delroy be refunding a Trader when he has a signed for mileage from his customer and his sales invoice to the Trader states the same mileage.Unless I am missing something,If anyone needs a partial refund for the 80k haircut,surely it is Delroys customer being the victim and not the Trader.

If Delroy's trade sale is a legitimate trade sale then the trade buyer will be responsible to refund or compensae the private buyer customer. The then said trade buyer will sue Delroy for his losses.

TS will be looking at the retailers who haven’t shown or can prove due diligence.