Is warranty legally necessary with discounted cars

[Peter Dim 1]

Hi, I need your expertise.

I sell some of the cars at hugely discounted price as a part time trader , sometimes prices are dropped around 1000 GBP less than market price if a car has category N written off .

Is it mandatory a warranty to be provided - As the cars are significantly discounted can the buyer sign an invoice contract they agree to buy without warranty but at hugely discounted price?

Cheers

Edited June 26, 2019 by Peter Dim

[tradegirl 112]

Others will explain this far better than me, but you don't have to provide a warranty at all, it's optional. It's in addition to the customer's legal rights (CRA)

You cannot get away from the buyer's consumer rights, and you can't get them to sign those away.

[Darkbluecars 10]

Sounds like an accurate account of the position as I understand it. If you're in the business of selling cars you're bound by the CPA, the warranty is something you provide as a way of adding value over and above the consumers statutory rights. EBay is full of traders advertising cars as a business with the caveat that there is no comeback and no warranty but they are just as liable under the CPA. I often wonder why Trading Standards don't act on these ads. I realise ebay couldn't give a toss. 

[EPV 631]

7 hours ago, Darkbluecars said:

Sounds like an accurate account of the position as I understand it. If you're in the business of selling cars you're bound by the CPA, the warranty is something you provide as a way of adding value over and above the consumers statutory rights. EBay is full of traders advertising cars as a business with the caveat that there is no comeback and no warranty but they are just as liable under the CPA. I often wonder why Trading Standards don't act on these ads. I realise ebay couldn't give a toss. 

Have you seen how many adverts there are? And have you seen how small a local trading standards operation is? And have you seen big the raft of other shit they have to deal with is?

Thats why. 

[Mojo121 229]

I’d have thought it you’re selling write offs you’d need to be 100% on the law. I’d also be curious to know why you’d want to sell something with no warranty?

The simple answer is yes, none of us are under any obligation whatsoever to offer any kind of warranty. However, if the clutch fails within a month you’re probably, not withstanding extenuating circumstances, legally obliged to fix it. Nothing to do with a warranty, just your legal obligation. The key is for you to understand the difference between the law and a warranty.

Edited June 27, 2019 by Mojo121

[James01 21]

9 hours ago, tradegirl said:

Others will explain this far better than me, but you don't have to provide a warranty at all, it's optional. It's in addition to the customer's legal rights (CRA)

You cannot get away from the buyer's consumer rights, and you can't get them to sign those away.

In fact you can get yourself into some trouble in trying to do so! 

[BIGNIT 4]

Only time I dont give warranty if its a

 

1)  trade sale. 

or

2)   Its a old banger took in px, receipt would state spares or repairs, car is assumed to be unroadworthy, buyer agrees not to drive the car on public road until it has been put in a roadworthy condition, or words to that affect.

I have very occasionally been slightly naughty in past with number one. I have sold retail cars to people such as mechanics who where buying for theirselves (and only if they are sensible after chatting with them) and written it up as a trade sale and given a small discount.

As for number 2 its only with cars advertised for 500 or 600 at most. But I try to avoid this as I hate dealing with people who are buying cars for this money. I try to trade them on to the unnoficial facebook trader types.

 

 

[It's me 615]

1 hour ago, BIGNIT said:

Only time I dont give warranty if its a

 

1)  trade sale. 

or

2)   Its a old banger took in px, receipt would state spares or repairs, car is assumed to be unroadworthy, buyer agrees not to drive the car on public road until it has been put in a roadworthy condition, or words to that affect.

I have very occasionally been slightly naughty in past with number one. I have sold retail cars to people such as mechanics who where buying for theirselves (and only if they are sensible after chatting with them) and written it up as a trade sale and given a small discount.

As for number 2 its only with cars advertised for 500 or 600 at most. But I try to avoid this as I hate dealing with people who are buying cars for this money. I try to trade them on to the unnoficial facebook trader types.

 

 

this is illegal unless you state in your wordings the car is spares only and destroy any documentation like service last week or mot certificate

if its driven away you will still be liable if it causes an accident/gets stopped in a roadside inspection

if its scrap ,scrap it, or send it to the auction where the venders have legal teams doing caveat umpar

or send it to copart but bash a wing in and declare as accident but not recorded

[LawJaw 50]

There is no legal requirement to give a warranty to your customers. Consumers will be covered by their statutory rights under the Consumer Rights Act 2015. However, a question we get asked a lot – who or what is a consumer?

The Consumer Rights Act 2015 has made it clearer as to who constitutes a consumer and therefore who attracts the full range of consumer rights. The definition of consumer is:

“an individual acting for purposes that are wholly or mainly outside that individual's trade, business, craft or profession.”

This means people buying vehicles to use as a taxi or for their work as a self-employed plumber are unlikely to be seen by the law as a consumer.

Special rules also apply to customers buying from a public live auction where the normal rules are ‘sold as seen’.

In most other transactions with a dealer, the individual customer will be entitled to their consumer rights and any attempt to deny the customers those rights are likely to not end well for the dealer. We know some dealers will sell a vehicle for a reduced price in return for a “no warranty” sale. However, warranty or not, that customer will still be entitled to rely on the provisions set out in the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and so any discount given could end up being just the starting point for a reduction in profit on that sale. 

A recent reported case in Cornwall demonstrates how it can go really wrong. A dealer (not one of our members of course!) was selling cars he’d purchased as ‘trade/spares and repairs’ on to customers while posing as a private seller in a deliberate effort to try and deny the customers their rights and so avoid any comeback. Trading Standards got involved and the case ended with the Magistrates dishing out a 13-week suspended sentence in addition to an order to pay compensation to two customers to the value of £1671.50 plus an £80 victim surcharge and prosecution costs of £2500.

The above really demonstrates the consequences of getting it wrong as it can not only cost money but can also lead to a criminal record.

[BIGNIT 4]

So we get a old banger in px its too good to scrap but not worth enough to prep properly (service fresh mot warranty valet etc).

Can we or cant we sell it as spares or repairs?

[awc1000 93]

27 minutes ago, BIGNIT said:

So we get a old banger in px its too good to scrap but not worth enough to prep properly (service fresh mot warranty valet etc).

Can we or cant we sell it as spares or repairs?

yes you can describe a vehicle any way you want too, however as stated above you will still be liable for comebacks unless moved onto another trader and as pointed out the description is irrelevant, traders keep forgetting the fact that price has nothing to do with it.

in summary - regardless of how much a vehicle costs if you are selling vehicles in the course of a business you are liable for the goods unless the buyer is using the goods inline with another business ie taxi, learner car, simple.

[trade vet 704]

36 minutes ago, BIGNIT said:

So we get a old banger in px its too good to scrap but not worth enough to prep properly (service fresh mot warranty valet etc).

Can we or cant we sell it as spares or repairs?

Having gone out of his way to educate us about CRA while providing a recent case example,LawJaw might not appreciate this enquiry. ( too put it mildly).

[BIGNIT 4]

He replied regarding who is a consumer, nothing was mentioned regarding selling an unroadworthy car.

I was always under the impression an unroadworthy car could be sold as long as it was stated to be unroadworthy.

How can there be come back on a car that is being advertised and sold for spares or repairs.

It is as described, it is fit for purpose (the purpose being spares or repairs) and of satisfactory quality.

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by BIGNIT

[LawJaw 50]

We still see a few cases where the words ‘sold for spares and repairs’ have been scribbled across a sales invoice.

We wrote an ‘Unroadworthy Vehicle Sales Invoice’ for vehicles that are genuinely being sold for spares and repairs. Sadly over time this has been misused by people who are uninformed or ill-informed.

Please be aware, if these invoices are misused they can attract the interest of Trading Standards and severely reduce any bargaining power you have with customers when something goes wrong. 

You should NOT use these invoices:

1.    To simply sell low value stock and/or part exchanges.

2.    As a means of telling the customer that the car comes with no warranty.

3.    Unless you clearly advertise the car as being “unroadworthy” and for spares or repairs only and that you clearly state it as such everywhere you do advertise the car including prominently inside the windows of the vehicle.  You should take and retain evidence of that advertising.

4.    You do NOT allow a test drive in the car.

5.     Do NOT put a new MOT on the car.

6.    You make it clear that the car is to be removed by low-loader and is not to be driven away by the customer.  IF the customer insists on driving it away you ought to have him to write a short note to say that he acknowledges the vehicle not to be fit for the road, that you have told him that it ought not to be driven away but that the customer is to do so irrespective of that advice.

Otherwise you open yourself up to claims that the buyer was never told the car was un-roadworthy until after they had paid the money for it and that they only found out when they got home and saw the sales document.

Further, you should ideally state on that advertising what makes the car un-roadworthy even in the most basic of terms - “defective braking system”, “severely corroded”, “steering not working properly” for example.

[Darkbluecars 10]

I made point 6. on here ages ago and got some stick saying it wasn't for me to tell people what they could and couldn't do. Glad it's been made clear cars for spares or repairs are not to be driven away from trade premises. 

[awc1000 93]

42 minutes ago, BIGNIT said:

He replied regarding who is a consumer, nothing was mentioned regarding selling an unroadworthy car.

I was always under the impression an unroadworthy car could be sold as long as it was stated to be unroadworthy.

How can there be come back on a car that is being advertised and sold for spares or repairs.

It is as described, it is fit for purpose (the purpose being spares or repairs) and of satisfactory quality.

 

good luck quoting the line - it is fit for purpose (the purpose being spares and repairs) and of satisfactory quality.....

the reality is it will be fit for nothing, certainly not for being used for what it is - a car.

the law may seem harsh on this subject but its there for a reason, and i'm of the opinion its a good law, selling cheap un-prepped cars as seen to the public is not good business and is touching on bad ethics,

when all is said and done, the difference what you net on a banger between selling it to the trade or selling it publicly is simply not worth the hassle to a bona fide trader,

the solution is - sell better cars, earn more money, sleep better.

[BIGNIT 4]

1 hour ago, LawJaw said:

We still see a few cases where the words ‘sold for spares and repairs’ have been scribbled across a sales invoice.

 

We wrote an ‘Unroadworthy Vehicle Sales Invoice’ for vehicles that are genuinely being sold for spares and repairs. Sadly over time this has been misused by people who are uninformed or ill-informed.

 

Please be aware, if these invoices are misused they can attract the interest of Trading Standards and severely reduce any bargaining power you have with customers when something goes wrong. 

 

You should NOT use these invoices:

 

1.    To simply sell low value stock and/or part exchanges.

 

2.    As a means of telling the customer that the car comes with no warranty.

 

3.    Unless you clearly advertise the car as being “unroadworthy” and for spares or repairs only and that you clearly state it as such everywhere you do advertise the car including prominently inside the windows of the vehicle.  You should take and retain evidence of that advertising.

 

4.    You do NOT allow a test drive in the car.

 

5.     Do NOT put a new MOT on the car.

 

6.    You make it clear that the car is to be removed by low-loader and is not to be driven away by the customer.  IF the customer insists on driving it away you ought to have him to write a short note to say that he acknowledges the vehicle not to be fit for the road, that you have told him that it ought not to be driven away but that the customer is to do so irrespective of that advice.

 

Otherwise you open yourself up to claims that the buyer was never told the car was un-roadworthy until after they had paid the money for it and that they only found out when they got home and saw the sales document.

 

Further, you should ideally state on that advertising what makes the car un-roadworthy even in the most basic of terms - “defective braking system”, “severely corroded”, “steering not working properly” for example.

 

Thanks for the clarification. Appreciated.

27 minutes ago, awc1000 said:

 

when all is said and done, the difference what you net on a banger between selling it to the trade or selling it publicly is simply not worth the hassle to a bona fide trader,

the solution is - sell better cars, earn more money, sleep better.

Totally agree with the above. I avoid selling anything for less than £2000. My original point is I was trying to make was that you dont have to give a warranty on everything. You can sell cars for spares or repairs. (although you have to tread carefully).

 

 

 

[andymc1973 199]

it will always bite you on your arse, I would avoid

[Arfur Dealy 823]

3 hours ago, BIGNIT said:

So we get a old banger in px its too good to scrap but not worth enough to prep properly (service fresh mot warranty valet etc).

Can we or cant we sell it as spares or repairs?

No you can't. You sell it as unroadworthy and unfit for purpose, to be broken for parts, to be trailored away. If the buyer wishes to entertain a repair that's their choice. Your advert and sales invoice replicates the above. You cannot sell and unroadworthy vehicle to a layman unless you cover your arse with the above. You should know this as a dealer. 

Don't ever advertise a car as "sold as seen" or "trade sale", its a huge no no. Don't ever imply it is something it isn't. Be honest and upfront.

[tradegirl 112]

While I know all the above is to cover our own back, I think it's ridiculous and unfair that if I sell a car with an EML as "I've reached the end of financial viability and I'm offering it up to someone who thinks they can make it work and use/sell it" and list the current known faults, Joe Public can later turn around and put me in a hole, on a car I'm already making no money off. Because Joe Public thought he was clever, and turns out he can't magically fix the car.

And so in order to avoid that, I have to advertise the car as completely noteworthy, meaning I make an even bigger loss on it.

The law, while made to protect the consumer, has also made it so that the consumer can completely and unjustifiably take advantage.

[NOACROSS 414]

Most people are normal, so you will often & probably be fine selling it. 

However, the odd moron will surface from time to time to kick you in the nuts TG. And they will have all the rights in the world of course. 

You've just gotta be prepared for when it’s your turn for the inevitable kicking. 

[Peter Dim 1]

Thanks for all the replies. 

Recently I bought a car written off category N. The issue was a front bumper and wing dents.

Do I need to have a certificate as a car mechanic to fix another wing and bumper? Because this is an easy fix and a lot of men can do it, unscrew some small wing and bumper bolts and all done.

Cheers

Edited June 27, 2019 by Peter Dim

[LawJaw 50]

49 minutes ago, tradegirl said:

While I know all the above is to cover our own back, I think it's ridiculous and unfair that if I sell a car with an EML as "I've reached the end of financial viability and I'm offering it up to someone who thinks they can make it work and use/sell it" and list the current known faults, Joe Public can later turn around and put me in a hole, on a car I'm already making no money off. Because Joe Public thought he was clever, and turns out he can't magically fix the car.

And so in order to avoid that, I have to advertise the car as completely noteworthy, meaning I make an even bigger loss on it.

The law, while made to protect the consumer, has also made it so that the consumer can completely and unjustifiably take advantage.

If the vehicle does have a fault, advertise the vehicle with the known fault and make this clear on any documentation that the consumer signs. If, a CD player is faulty, ensure to include this within the advertisement, state is on the pre-delivery inspection and on the sale invoice. Ask the consumer to sign to acknowledge and accept the vehicle with the faulty CD player being faulty. This will then form part of the agreement to purchase the vehicle.

If the consumer returns a week later with a complaint of the CD player not working, no remedy will be owed to them as they knowingly purchased the vehicle with the faulty CD player and you can show it formed part of the agreement.

[tradegirl 112]

13 minutes ago, LawJaw said:

If the vehicle does have a fault, advertise the vehicle with the known fault and make this clear on any documentation that the consumer signs. If, a CD player is faulty, ensure to include this within the advertisement, state is on the pre-delivery inspection and on the sale invoice. Ask the consumer to sign to acknowledge and accept the vehicle with the faulty CD player being faulty. This will then form part of the agreement to purchase the vehicle.

 

If the consumer returns a week later with a complaint of the CD player not working, no remedy will be owed to them as they knowingly purchased the vehicle with the faulty CD player and you can show it formed part of the agreement.

 

Yes, but what if for instance there's a mechanical problem? We had a car not long ago that had cost us the Earth, but there was an intermittent engine issue where the car would go into limp mode, and had an engine light not even the dealer could get to the bottom of. It was pointing to a sensor, but that sensor had been changed.

The car drove fine, but every now and then this light would come on. I don't know what that light is, or what caused it, so...even if I make the customer aware, and it could be something bigger than even I know about. 

Am I liable in that case? Even if I've advertised it as I've written here?

Someone could buy it thinking it's something silly and fixable, and they either see that 1. It's not as fixable as they thought, or 2. It's a bigger fix than any of us thought. At which point I imagine I'd be held liable, and would be seen as a dodgy dealer.

We bought a car years ago with an EML, and it wasn't as simple as we thought. We werent about to go back to the dealer and ask for money from him, because WE took a chance on the car. He sold it well below retail, for anyone willing to take it on.

[awc1000 93]

12 minutes ago, tradegirl said:

Yes, but what if for instance there's a mechanical problem? We had a car not long ago that had cost us the Earth, but there was an intermittent engine issue where the car would go into limp mode, and had an engine light not even the dealer could get to the bottom of. It was pointing to a sensor, but that sensor had been changed.

The car drove fine, but every now and then this light would come on. I don't know what that light is, or what caused it, so...even if I make the customer aware, and it could be something bigger than even I know about. 

Am I liable in that case? Even if I've advertised it as I've written here?

Someone could buy it thinking it's something silly and fixable, and they either see that 1. It's not as fixable as they thought, or 2. It's a bigger fix than any of us thought. At which point I imagine I'd be held liable, and would be seen as a dodgy dealer.

We bought a car years ago with an EML, and it wasn't as simple as we thought. We werent about to go back to the dealer and ask for money from him, because WE took a chance on the car. He sold it well below retail, for anyone willing to take it on.

It contradicts if its just an eml light, if this were the case you would simply fix it and wouldn't be looking to sell it cheaper 'as is', if your aware it has underlying issues as stated then the eml light on is kind of irrelevant, hence selling on with an intermittent fault would be asking for trouble,

If you have exhausted trying to fix the car and it owes you wrong then sorry to hear that but that's life, no point thinking a punter will be getting a bargain, he only will if you give him an opportunity to buy it and haunt you later, likely ending in refund.

send it to auction, hope someone else takes it on, as soon as it's out of your life the sooner it will be out of your head, good luck with the next one.