CRA - Conclusive Action Required Legally

[Anglo9 26]

4 minutes ago, mike101 said:

Under the old SGA, faults like this were deemed to be ‘latent’ for the first 6 months and the seller had to prove otherwise. After that the burden of proof reversed and the buyer had to prove. Not sure how this sits within CRA?

As normal a lot will depend how reasonable (or not) the punter is. 

My understanding is it's the same , when you sell a car, basically , hold your breath for 6 months . Difference with cra15 is right to reject within 30 days re major fault . We use an independent RAC approved garage to PDI and have our own warranty fund , sure it's a bummer when you pay out a claim but that's why you tuck some money aside on each sale .

[EPV 631]

2 hours ago, MSP Motors said:

I go back to how do you prove the gearbox wasn't shagged at point of sale without either spending a lot of money getting it inspected after the event..... Or spending the same amount Inspecting before the car goes out? A customer signed PDI is completely meaningless in this scenario.

In this scenario it is yes. 

But the PDI makes it virtually impossible for the billy to get a refund within the 30 days right to reject. Different scenario  

But yes, 3 months into ownership, the pdi is irrelevant and it’s unreasonable for the consumer to expect a new gearbox on a 14 year old car with 120,000 miles on. 

[MOTORS 25]

2 hours ago, Mark101 said:

I and the 3rd party garage both use the Snap On Solus, a great piece of kit but even that cannot go as deep as full dealer level diagnostics, so whilst you clearly make every feasible effort, it isn't fool proof and like you say, it won't pick up a worn bearing, so a moot point in this particluar OP.

 

It would be a moot point if Okay Dokay had said the gear box has failed due to a worn bearing or gear etc. If the car wasn't scanned before sale there's no point in scanning it now. There are plenty of faults which show up on scans such as mechatronic valves, slipping clutch between gears etc. If there is a fault showing now that was not there when it was sold it's obviously developed since purchase, possibly a wear and tear item and possibly make it open to negotiation to resolve.

[Mark101 536]

3 minutes ago, EPV said:

In this scenario it is yes. 

But the PDI makes it virtually impossible for the billy to get a refund within the 30 days right to reject. Different scenario  

But yes, 3 months into ownership, the pdi is irrelevant and it’s unreasonable for the consumer to expect a new gearbox on a 14 year old car with 120,000 miles on. 

See I disagree - the warranty is valid for 3 months or 3k.  IMO the owner deserves the cars warranty to be validated regardless whether  the car is work a quid or a hundred grand.  Otherwise, what’s the point in doing what we do, what value do we add?

Caveat - except when you have done a deal with Billy for a sold as is and he is renaging on the deal, i.e wanting his cake and eating it.

4 minutes ago, MOTORS said:

It would be a moot point if Okay Dokay had said the gear box has failed due to a worn bearing or gear etc. If the car wasn't scanned before sale there's no point in scanning it now. There are plenty of faults which show up on scans such as mechatronic valves, slipping clutch between gears etc. If there is a fault showing now that was not there when it was sold it's obviously developed since purchase, possibly a wear and tear item and possibly make it open to negotiation to resolve.

Again, so what whether it was there before or not and IMO, even a clutch isn’t a wear n tear item within my warranty period (not sure what else could even be argued as wear n tear in a gearbox).

I think it is completely reasonable for a customer to expect his gearbox to last throughout the warranty, regardless whether it is a wear and tear item or not.

[MOTORS 25]

8 minutes ago, Mark101 said:

See I disagree - the warranty is valid for 3 months or 3k.  IMO the owner deserves the cars warranty to be validated regardless whether  the car is work a quid or a hundred grand.  Otherwise, what’s the point in doing what we do, what value do we add?

Caveat - except when you have done a deal with Billy for a sold as is and he is renaging on the deal, i.e wanting his cake and eating it.

Again, so what whether it was there before or not and IMO, even a clutch isn’t a wear n tear item within my warranty period (not sure what else could even be argued as wear n tear in a gearbox).

I think it is completely reasonable for a customer to expect his gearbox to last throughout the warranty, regardless whether it is a wear and tear item or not.

So not a moot point

[BHM 994]

13 hours ago, Okay dokay said:

Please only respond on what you know to be legally factual - and not opinion.

I think a few contributors need a reminder 

[EPV 631]

Just now, Mark101 said:

See I disagree - the warranty is valid for 3 months or 3k.  IMO the owner deserves the cars warranty to be validated regardless whether  the car is work a quid or a hundred grand.  Otherwise, what’s the point in doing what we do, what value do we add?

Caveat - except when you have done a deal with Billy for a sold as is and he is renaging on the deal, i.e wanting his cake and eating it.

Warranties are neither here nor there. 3 months, 2 weeks, a year, it means nothing really. They are jut insurance policies. 

Example, if you offer a 3 month warranty and after 4 months something catastrophic happens, and it’s nothing to do with user error or wear and tear, you are in the chair. Up to 6 months and you are in the chair. I’m talking about legalities here, not smoke and mirrors of warranties. 

It’s subjective as said above but as an example, a 6 year old Car with 60k on and the gearbox is shagged, 4 months into ownership, you’re losing in court imo. 

14 year old car, 120k, shagged gearbox, 4 months into ownership, you’ve got a great chance of winning that one on the basis of the CRA excluding wear and tear. 

The pdi is specifically taking away the Billy’s right to refund within 30 days, meaning if the fault isn’t present at the POS then it has developed and the punter can’t get a refund only a repair. Past 30 days the pdi is neither here nor there as you have to provide a fix if it isn’t a wear and tear fault. 

Warranties are insurance products. Self funded protect the customer (even though they are protected) and third party ones protect you as well. Smoke and mirrors. Warranties and lawful rights are two separate things. 

Now I offer 3 months on 10 year old cars or lower. After 4 months I can tell a customer to do one as it’s past their warranty period but legally I know that it’s not as simple as that but do they know? Maybe not. Smoke and mirrors. I offer no warranty on older cars. After 6 weeks a fault occurs. Sorry mr customer no warranty. I know it’s not as simple as that but do they? Smoke and mirrors. It’s not my job to educate them on the CRA. It’s my job to educate myself. 

[Frankieola 22]

For those of you who are self funding your warranty's, How much do you put aside for each car or do you put aside a certain amount each month?

[MSP Motors 39]

13 minutes ago, MOTORS said:

So not a moot point

If the mechatronic unit fails 2 months into a customer's ownership and you turn round and say sorry buddy, no faults present at point of sale, then I think that's a load of shit. One, the valve may not be registered as faulty on your tool, but it has obviously been exposed to excessive wear. I have had many of these fail and it's a fucking pain, however I've never turned round to a customer and said. "Sorry, but you're on your own". I can't see maybe people buying a 6k-10k car, owning it for a few months, then paying 3k at a main dealer to have their gearbox fixed.

Legally.....it's mainly subjective!

[EPV 631]

5 minutes ago, Frankieola said:

For those of you who are self funding your warranty's, How much do you put aside for each car or do you put aside a certain amount each month?

On a spreadsheet, £150. In real life, fuck all and I will deal with the claim and and when it happens. I imagine some will put it n a separate account and have a good drink at Christmas or give the staff a bonus etc.

3 minutes ago, MSP Motors said:

If the mechatronic unit fails 2 months into a customer's ownership and you turn round and say sorry buddy, no faults present at point of sale, then I think that's a load of shit. One, the valve may not be registered as faulty on your tool, but it has obviously been exposed to excessive wear. I have had many of these fail and it's a fucking pain, however I've never turned round to a customer and said. "Sorry, but you're on your own". I can't see maybe people buying a 6k-10k car, owning it for a few months, then paying 3k at a main dealer to have their gearbox fixed.

Legally.....it's mainly subjective!

This is where the confusion arise imo.

The PDI is there to negate the right to reject. 30 days. It is an irrelevance in this specific scenario and I think the OP would have a great chance of winning in court, or even getting it cut and dried before that with the help of someone like Lawgistics.

[MOTORS 25]

3 minutes ago, MSP Motors said:

If the mechatronic unit fails 2 months into a customer's ownership and you turn round and say sorry buddy, no faults present at point of sale, then I think that's a load of shit. One, the valve may not be registered as faulty on your tool, but it has obviously been exposed to excessive wear. I have had many of these fail and it's a fucking pain, however I've never turned round to a customer and said. "Sorry, but you're on your own". I can't see maybe people buying a 6k-10k car, owning it for a few months, then paying 3k at a main dealer to have their gearbox fixed.

Legally.....it's mainly subjective!

So it's not a moot point.

We wouldn't tell a customer that, so it's not a load of shit. We take every car and every situation on it's own merits. You can't build a reputation by turning away warranty claims, but scans, PDI's and checks which the customer is aware of help to come to amicable agreements to resolve matters. 

[Arfur Dealy 823]

44 minutes ago, EPV said:

Warranties are neither here nor there. 3 months, 2 weeks, a year, it means nothing really. They are jut insurance policies. 

Example, if you offer a 3 month warranty and after 4 months something catastrophic happens, and it’s nothing to do with user error or wear and tear, you are in the chair. Up to 6 months and you are in the chair. I’m talking about legalities here, not smoke and mirrors of warranties. 

It’s subjective as said above but as an example, a 6 year old Car with 60k on and the gearbox is shagged, 4 months into ownership, you’re losing in court imo. 

14 year old car, 120k, shagged gearbox, 4 months into ownership, you’ve got a great chance of winning that one on the basis of the CRA excluding wear and tear. 

The pdi is specifically taking away the Billy’s right to refund within 30 days, meaning if the fault isn’t present at the POS then it has developed and the punter can’t get a refund only a repair. Past 30 days the pdi is neither here nor there as you have to provide a fix if it isn’t a wear and tear fault. 

Warranties are insurance products. Self funded protect the customer (even though they are protected) and third party ones protect you as well. Smoke and mirrors. Warranties and lawful rights are two separate things. 

Now I offer 3 months on 10 year old cars or lower. After 4 months I can tell a customer to do one as it’s past their warranty period but legally I know that it’s not as simple as that but do they know? Maybe not. Smoke and mirrors. I offer no warranty on older cars. After 6 weeks a fault occurs. Sorry mr customer no warranty. I know it’s not as simple as that but do they? Smoke and mirrors. It’s not my job to educate them on the CRA. It’s my job to educate myself. 

Simple answer is do not offer a warranty, I don’t, I never have and I tell every billy why, because I believe most of the time they aren’t worth the paper they are written on, especially on older cars way past the period the manufacturer was prepared to guarantee it. This is pertinent because warranty’s generally don’t cover wear n tear and neither does the CRA.

However, Mr Customer there are a few good ones out there and there is nothing wrong in you purchasing your own insurance if you want coverage over and above. 

Ill be honest, it is very rare I pay a penny after thirty days. 

[EPV 631]

Just now, Arfur Dealy said:

Simple answer is do not offer a warranty, I don’t, I never have and I tell every billy why, because I believe most of the time they aren’t worth the paper they are written on, especially on older cars way past the period the manufacturer was prepared to guarantee it. This is pertinent because warranty’s generally don’t cover wear n tear and neither does the CRA.

However, Mr Customer there are a few good ones out there and there is nothing wrong in you purchasing your own insurance if you want coverage over and above. 

Ill be honest, it is very rare I pay a penny after thirty days. 

I offer a warranty simply because people always ask “does it have a warranty” and never ask “do you stand by your obligations under the CRA?”

Warranties are smoke and mirrors and a sales tool. I get why you don’t offer them Si, I agree with you entirely and I know you agree with what i’m saying here. Personally I find it just saves the CRA conversation. 

“Does it have a warranty?”

”Yes mr customer rest assured you’re covered”

Thats all I need to tell them, they are already covered they just don’t know it. 

The reality is for £15 per unit, Lawgistics provide me with a glossy brochure and take the call to determine whether the onus is on me or the punter. £15 well spent. 

[tradegirl 112]

Surely we can get a Lawgistics solicitor on this forum to give us legal answers on these issues. Come on gentlemen, pull a few strings!

These issues keep coming up and it seems it's only 1-2 in the thread who know the definitive legal answer.

Edited August 26, 2018 by tradegirl

[EPV 631]

2 minutes ago, tradegirl said:

Surely we can get a Lawgistics solicitor on this forum to give us legal answers on these issues. Come on gentlemen, pull a few strings!

These issues keep coming up and it seems it's only 1-2 in the thread who know the definitive legal answer.

In fairness to Lawgistics, they are a business. They offer a shit load of free advice bearing this in mind. It’s not fair on their paying members if they pop up every time and give away advice people pay for. 

[Arfur Dealy 823]

1 hour ago, BHM said:

I think a few contributors need a reminder 

Like. 

[EPV 631]

I’m not a member of Lawgistics by the way. I will be one day soon though. 

[MOTORS 25]

2 minutes ago, EPV said:

I’m not a member of Lawgistics by the way. I will be one day soon though. 

I can highly recommend them. They are very good. 

[mike101 8]

 

2 minutes ago, tradegirl said:

Surely we can get a Lawgistics solicitor on this forum to give us legal answers on these issues. Come on gentlemen, pull a few strings!

These issues keep coming up and it seems it's only 1-2 in the thread who know the definitive legal answer.

There is no definitive legal answer - that’s the problem. Most of it is subject to the test of ‘reasonableness’. 

If it went to Court the question would be ‘Would you expect the x on a car worth y to last z?’

The answer would depend on a huge amount of variables but ultimately the consumer is there to be protected so will prob win!

[MSP Motors 39]

4 minutes ago, mike101 said:

 

There is no definitive legal answer - that’s the problem. Most of it is subject to the test of ‘reasonableness’. 

If it went to Court the question would be ‘Would you expect the x on a car worth y to last z?’

The answer would depend on a huge amount of variables but ultimately the consumer is there to be protected so will prob win!

This

[Arfur Dealy 823]

9 minutes ago, EPV said:

I offer a warranty simply because people always ask “does it have a warranty” and never ask “do you stand by your obligations under the CRA?”

Warranties are smoke and mirrors and a sales tool. I get why you don’t offer them Si, I agree with you entirely and I know you agree with what i’m saying here. Personally I find it just saves the CRA conversation. 

“Does it have a warranty?”

”Yes mr customer rest assured you’re covered”

Thats all I need to tell them, they are already covered they just don’t know it. 

The reality is for £15 per unit, Lawgistics provide me with a glossy brochure and take the call to determine whether the onus is on me or the punter. £15 well spent. 

The point is I cover the warranty and the CRA in that discussion, I say the car is freshly motd, independently inspected and accurately described which I guarantee. Customer signs to agree. I few minutes educating goes a long way.

[Arfur Dealy 823]

30 minutes ago, tradegirl said:

Surely we can get a Lawgistics solicitor on this forum to give us legal answers on these issues. Come on gentlemen, pull a few strings!

These issues keep coming up and it seems it's only 1-2 in the thread who know the definitive legal answer.

There is no definitive answer. 

30 minutes ago, EPV said:

I’m not a member of Lawgistics by the way. I will be one day soon though. 

I can highly recommend them also. 

35 minutes ago, EPV said:

I’m not a member of Lawgistics by the way. I will be one day soon though. 

Wait though, until you really need them because you’ll get a years coverage from that date. 

[MSP Motors 39]

29 minutes ago, Arfur Dealy said:

The point is I cover the warranty and the CRA in that discussion, I say the car is freshly motd, independently inspected and accurately described which I guarantee. Customer signs to agree. I few minutes educating goes a long way.

If I bought a car from you and the box failed within 2 months, I'd tell you to poke your accuracy and Fix my gearbox. Regardless of the prep/PDI/video, if the punters car isn't fit for purpose after 2 months how is that fair? 

[Arfur Dealy 823]

4 minutes ago, MSP Motors said:

If I bought a car from you and the box failed within 2 months, I'd tell you to poke your accuracy and Fix my gearbox. Regardless of the prep/PDI/video, if the punters car isn't fit for purpose after 2 months how is that fair? 

Would you.

With a stinking attitude like that you would be told to take responsibility and ownership for the maintenance and repairs of your own car. 

[EPV 631]

21 minutes ago, MSP Motors said:

If I bought a car from you and the box failed within 2 months, I'd tell you to poke your accuracy and Fix my gearbox. Regardless of the prep/PDI/video, if the punters car isn't fit for purpose after 2 months how is that fair? 

A 14 year old car and 120,000 miles?

Sorry, with due respect, your mention earlier about how you’d fix a car within 3 months cos that’s how long your warranty is shows that you don’t have quite the grasp of this subject as you think you might.