Finding out car is Cat D

[D&M 66]

Hi All,

Friends of ours have asked us to sell a 2002 BMW 325ci Individual cabrio on their behalf, which we agreed.

They purchased the car in October, and have records of the advert and their invoice. Dealer told them the car had been in a minor bump and only needed a new front wing which was all done.

We've started getting it ready, and found a further damage and HPI shows its a Cat D. Our friends were assured when purchasing that although the car had a little damage, the car was not an insurance loss.

They didn't HPI the car themselves, they trusted the word of the dealer. They did ask the dealer all the right questions as they phoned from Spain to enquire about the car to make sure it was what they wanted, and the dealer had oppertunity to disclose but obviously chose not to disclose.

They're gutted, they paid good money for the car and wouldn't have bought it if they knew it was in insurance loss. We're lucky we found out before advertising!

The catergory on the car was from before the dealer they bought from repaired it, so now they know it's a catergory and has had a second.

This isn't a case of buyers remorse. They are genuine people, and they think (and we do too) they've had to wool pulled over their eyes. Its a weekend toy that they've only coverd less than 300 miles since they've bought it.

Would be interested in your opinions on how they can resolve this

[Nick M.K. 574]

Easiest resolution is to try and ask the dealer to refund them less a small amount for usage. The kind of dealer that hides write off damage will usually just say **** **F!

Second easiest (assuming you can not sell a Cat D car) is for them to try and sell the BMW privately for close to what they paid for it. Luckily because the car is so old but not quite a classic the difference in values may not be massive and there is always someone on the market after an e46 Convertible.

The next option of course is for them to start legal proceedings against that dealer to recover the price they paid for the car. 

[BHM 994]

Tell them to phone the dealer - it’s not on the advert or invoice so the dealer will either fold (deduct how much per week for usage??) or tell them to f.o. Simple as that & don’t get involved would be my advice! You’ve got nothing to gain, it’ll take up your time & what if ‘dodgy trader’ is a big bad lad who comes to visit you after your friend starts quoting you? It’s not your argument. 

Funnily enough this is the second time in a fortnight I’ve heard similar & this is what I told my trader friend;  They’ve bought elsewhere, friend or not let them crack on with it, if they’d bought from you, a friend, this wouldn’t of happened, would it? I also added I bet he bought cheap, thinking he was getting a deal, well he’s certainly been dealt!

I know I sound like Mr. Uncharitable but we’ve only got your version of events. Friends or not, I have little sympathy for 99% of people who are ripped off because, put simply, their greed has led them to it. 

[trade vet 702]

I have found it is often so called friends who think they know better and go off and buy elsewhere and get it wrong.They then probably expect you to help them out for nowt.....Firstly,does the supplying dealer still operate.

[D&M 66]

Thank you for the replies so far.

The dealer still operates, We've had a look on their website and about 30% of their stock is Cat C/D/N/S with no mention. I wouldn't like to do that.

We've told them to get in contact with the dealer. Which is when they'll find out what kind he is.

They paid strong money for the car, I'm sure they didn't buy it because it was cheap. They bought it because it was an individual.

But good thinking, we did think about offering to help - but we've already spent 2 days getting it ready for photos!

[trade vet 702]

12 minutes ago, D&M said:

Thank you for the replies so far.

The dealer still operates, We've had a look on their website and about 30% of their stock is Cat C/D/N/S with no mention. I wouldn't like to do that.

We've told them to get in contact with the dealer. Which is when they'll find out what kind he is.

They paid strong money for the car, I'm sure they didn't buy it because it was cheap. They bought it because it was an individual.

But good thinking, we did think about offering to help - but we've already spent 2 days getting it ready for photos!

Two days getting it ready....I can imagine that........you must point that out to them.I would have a look at their invoice and the copy of the advert.If it is clearly misdescribed I would advise that they should request a full refund and return the car or they will either take action through the courts or contact their Trading Standards Dept ( If they still have one ).

[D&M 66]

13 minutes ago, trade vet said:

Two days getting it ready....I can imagine that........you must point that out to them.I would have a look at their invoice and the copy of the advert.If it is clearly misdescribed I would advise that they should request a full refund and return the car or they will either take action through the courts or contact their Trading Standards Dept ( If they still have one ).

Thanks for the reply,

That is what the plan is at the moment - they've got a copy of the advert and no mention. On their invoice it does state that they were aware of damage, but that is in reference to to damage to just the wing (as the dealer they bought from is the dealer who replaced the wing)

[Arfur Dealy 823]

Give the seller the option to do the right thing immediately, otherwise Trading Standards. TS will jump on the oportunity, GREAT publicity for little effort.....

[EPV 631]

Agree with everyone else on here, politely threaten with TS if the Dealer doesn’t refund less 50p per mile and if he does the big bad lad act then get in touch with TS. They will love this. 

[andymc1973 199]

they will phoenix the business 

[EPV 631]

13 minutes ago, andymc1973 said:

they will phoenix the business 

Possibly or, they may just pony up, wipe their mouths and sell the car to someone else 

[have a word with the wife 299]

3 hours ago, D&M said:

On their invoice it does state that they were aware of damage,

No chance then, case dismissed.

As for trading standards, trading standards advise on consumer law, they will [ if funds allow] investigate and advise a company that is breaking consumer law, they havent broken consumer law, so will not investigate.

[EPV 631]

6 minutes ago, have a word with the wife said:

No chance then, case dismissed.

As for trading standards, trading standards advise on consumer law, they will [ if funds allow] investigate and advise a company that is breaking consumer law, they havent broken consumer law, so will not investigate.

The car is an insurance write off and that wasn’t stated on the advert, or the invoice. If that isn’t breaking consumer law god knows what is. It’s one thing to say the wing of a car was damaged and replaced. It’s another to omit the fact the car has been a total loss at some stage?

[have a word with the wife 299]

29 minutes ago, EPV said:

 

 

41 minutes ago, have a word with the wife said:

 

 

Edited July 29, 2018 by have a word with the wife

[EPV 631]

I thought the OP said that the recorded loss was prior to the supplying dealer, in other words, they knew. They either knew or, they should have knew. Ignorance wouldn’t be an excuse. 

5 hours ago, D&M said:

 

The catergory on the car was from before the dealer they bought from repaired it, so now they know it's a catergory and has had a second.

 

.

[trade vet 702]

19 minutes ago, have a word with the wife said:

No chance then, case dismissed.

As for trading standards, trading standards advise on consumer law, they will [ if funds allow] investigate and advise a company that is breaking consumer law, they havent broken consumer law, so will not investigate.

The dealer must be in breach of the Trade Descriptions Act.However I do agree that they may not prosecute possibly because of the cost and that the dealer may have no visible assets.Is it not possible TS may prosecute but might then agree to a guilty plea to some lesser charge which may rate a fine of £100 and then claim a successfull prosecution.There is a lot of that going on in the courts now and that would not be much good for the victim.Small claims route may be better and if you win and they don’t pay,I think you can send in the bailiffs.......I am not sure.

[have a word with the wife 299]

4 hours ago, D&M said:

Thank you for the replies so far.

The dealer still operates, We've had a look on their website and about 30% of their stock is Cat C/D/N/S with no mention. I wouldn't like to do that.

We've told them to get in contact with the dealer. Which is when they'll find out what kind he is.

 

is the best plan all round, and mate, dont get involved, sure you will get your costs back somehow, or put it down to experience

16 minutes ago, trade vet said:

The dealer must be in breach of the Trade Descriptions Act.However I do agree that they may not prosecute possibly because of the cost and that the dealer may have no visible assets.Is it not possible TS may prosecute but might then agree to a guilty plea to some lesser charge which may rate a fine of £100 and then claim a successfull prosecution.There is a lot of that going on in the courts now and that would not be much good for the victim.Small claims route may be better and if you win and they don’t pay,I think you can send in the bailiffs.......I am not sure.

probably ltd 

[BHM 994]

After all that, as I wrote, let Mr & Mrs 15yr old BMW get on with it. They phoned up for the car so they can now phone up to claim back their money for buying a plonker.

D&M - you’re far too nice!! They’ve already used two days of your time for which you’ll no doubt receive f.a. You are running a business not a charity! Sorry, you’ve done more than enough - see how keen Mr & Mrs 15yr old BMW are to come down to your unit and do two days graft for you (good luck there - you’ll soon see how good these friends really are).

As for those of you thinking TS will immediately jump to it & get an immediate solution?? Give me strength, it’s 2018, they’re overstretched & any investigation & subsequent prosecution is well down the line. Mr & Mrs 15yr old BMW‘s BMW will be in the knacker’s yard by then. One written-off ancient convertible ain’t newsworthy either.

 

5 hours ago, trade vet said:

I have found it is often so called friends who think they know better and go off and buy elsewhere and get it wrong.They then probably expect you to help them out for nowt.....

+1. Too bloody true. They’re keen to buy elsewhere so when it turns to shit they can go & get their advice elsewhere.

Why on earth do so many in this industry want to assist a (usually greedy) retail punter for buying from an alleged dodgy trader elsewhere? 

Sorry, no sympathy here. 

P.s. someone buying an old knacker bmw cabby cos it’s “individual spec” speaks volumes to me (Too greedy to do a £5 car check).

[EPV 631]

I certainly don’t agree with everything you say BHM but you’re fucking entertainment. 

[Rory RSC 596]

10 hours ago, BHM said:

After all that, as I wrote, let Mr & Mrs 15yr old BMW get on with it. They phoned up for the car so they can now phone up to claim back their money for buying a plonker.

D&M - you’re far too nice!! They’ve already used two days of your time for which you’ll no doubt receive f.a. You are running a business not a charity! Sorry, you’ve done more than enough - see how keen Mr & Mrs 15yr old BMW are to come down to your unit and do two days graft for you (good luck there - you’ll soon see how good these friends really are).

As for those of you thinking TS will immediately jump to it & get an immediate solution?? Give me strength, it’s 2018, they’re overstretched & any investigation & subsequent prosecution is well down the line. Mr & Mrs 15yr old BMW‘s BMW will be in the knacker’s yard by then. One written-off ancient convertible ain’t newsworthy either.

 

+1. Too bloody true. They’re keen to buy elsewhere so when it turns to shit they can go & get their advice elsewhere.

Why on earth do so many in this industry want to assist a (usually greedy) retail punter for buying from an alleged dodgy trader elsewhere? 

Sorry, no sympathy here. 

P.s. someone buying an old knacker bmw cabby cos it’s “individual spec” speaks volumes to me (Too greedy to do a £5 car check).

Kind of agree with the sentiments of this tbf. Pretty much my view.

 

Like the customers who came to buy a car off me at the weekend having had their other car taken off by the police as they had been down to London to buy it from a Shady estate, privately as it was a 15k car for 10k...no wonder it was so cheap  it was nicked.

[BHM 994]

8 hours ago, EPV said:

I certainly don’t agree with everything you say BHM but you’re fucking entertainment. 

I do lay it on thick for amusement!

I should add I see the car is older than I first thought - the bloody old thing is 16 years old!

Tbh the likes of this thread annoy the f***ing life out of me - a nice, helpful, honest (I assume) trader being milked of their time & professional experience by a punter who was ALLEGEDLY shafted over by a third party. I look forward to finding out when D&M get recompensed in some fashion for their two days of work so far on the car THAT THEIR FRIEND HAD MISREPRESENTED TO THEM, albeit possibly in ignorance. 

It’s just another Champagne taste, Lemonade money punter who bought an old BMW cabby knowing fine well it’d been in a prang, had had parts replaced but thought they’d save a fiver on a car check. Ok, IF the story is accurate the seller’s dodgy but so what? That’s not any of ours concern. The BMW’s owner has had enough of the car the dealer they want to sell it has found it’s on the register. So what? Give them the f***ing keys back & tell them to crack on with it! At the end of the day it’s just an old cabby for the ‘bit of flash, not much cash’ market.

DOES BEING ON THE VCAR REALLY AFFECT ITS VALUE??? Not bloody much! 

DODGY DEALERS?? There are thousands of them, you can tell half of them with their evasive adverts & photos. Don’t fight other people’s battles. 

Finally, let us all remember the ancient (even older than the BMW) saying in Latin; Caveat Emptor! 

2 minutes ago, Rory RSC said:

Like the customers who came to buy a car off me at the weekend having had their other car taken off by the police as they had been down to London to buy it from a Shady estate, privately as it was a 15k car for 10k...no wonder it was so cheap  it was nicked.

Yep! Pure greed motivates these people. You can’t rip-off an honest man.

[EPV 631]

I think these are friends of the OP’s, not casual acquaintances 

[D&M 66]

Thanks for the comments and advice.

They are friends of ours, but we've done as much as we can - pointing out the flaws and letting them deal with is as they feel appropriate.

They've offered us £400 for our time and efforts so far, which is pretty generous! They were more worried about this upsetting our relationship with them.

We just don't like hearing about dishonesty, this trader car was registered as Cat D 3 months prior to our friends buying it but they were absoloutly assured that the car was NOT on the insurance register. They didn't check it, but the dealer isn't a small place and seemed reputable.

We would hate to think that any of our customers have left us feeling like that.

But thank you again all for your posts and insights.

[Rory RSC 596]

 I would say the one thing on here despite our different approaches to selling cars is we are all pretty honest traders. We might jazz stuff up a bit, etc etc but no one on here is selling cat damaged cars and not telling customers or anything like that.

Sad reality is there are plenty of places who run their business model like this clocking / buying accident repair / selling bodged up death traps. Its a full time job, new name every few months, go back and complain get asked if you want a fight, car goes wrong so what zero comeback. When you do the job right and fix problems, sell fair stock and look after folk you don't need to be dropping money off nice cars either.

 

 

[Dealer 54]

2 hours ago, D&M said:

Thanks for the comments and advice.

They are friends of ours, but we've done as much as we can - pointing out the flaws and letting them deal with is as they feel appropriate.

They've offered us £400 for our time and efforts so far, which is pretty generous! They were more worried about this upsetting our relationship with them.

We just don't like hearing about dishonesty, this trader car was registered as Cat D 3 months prior to our friends buying it but they were absoloutly assured that the car was NOT on the insurance register. They didn't check it, but the dealer isn't a small place and seemed reputable.

We would hate to think that any of our customers have left us feeling like that.

But thank you again all for your posts and insights.

Name and shame