SK Motors

What are you guys paying for your trade insurance ? I've had a road risk policy with Tradewise for 6 years with £15,000 indemnity which also covered sports/performance and prestige and also allowed personal use of any of my cars. This cost me pretty much £1000 per year but unfortunately I have 2 SP30'S on my licence now. This has pushed my trade insurance to £1400 ! They will not budge on that even though I've told them I'm a named driver on my partners business insurance and my points only increased her policy by £70 which they then dropped back off to keep her custom. I've decided not to renew my policy and have insured my own car privately for £400. This decision has forced me to potentially stop trading as of now. I just can't justify the cost of the insurance when I'm a part time trader only selling 1 or 2 cars a month at best. Out of interest, those of you who are part time traders trading from home, how much are you paying for similar insurance cover ? If I can find another company that will cover me at a reasonable cost then I may carry on, otherwise I'm sorry to say this will be the end for me.

As a 'Part time' trader from home I've not been the most popular on here but here goes: Yes it's possible to make a 'good living' from it providing you're willing to put some serious hours into it. I work on average a minimum of 45 hours a week in my full time job before I even start with the cars. I work every evening and every weekend, I get emails/text messages/phone calls etc literally anytime. I was discussing a car I have advertised through email on Saturday night until 1am and that has just been collected today so in my opinion was worth it. I don't bother working out what the equivalent hourly rate would be as I just don't see it like that. Unfortunately, I have 6 points on my driving licence now and my insurance is due for renewal. It's now nearly £1400 just for a road risk policy ! I feel the same about people in my local area who are blatantly traders but deny it. "It's just a hobby, I keep selling cars because I'm not happy with them etc" ! These people don't pay trade insurance, tax, vat or warrant cars and probably make more money than me. In fact, I was looking at a Range Rover on eBay for myself and when I phoned the guy up he said "Which one, I've got 3 !" When I asked about warranties etc he laughed and said he just buys and sells the odd car, he's not a trader. That guy had over £100,000 of stock advertised !

Thinking about this again this morning. Late last year, I heard the DVLA were looking at scrapping trade plates altogether. Apparently the contract with the company who produce the trade plates was due to expire in April 2017 and the DVLA were not looking at renewing it. Anyone know anything about this?

I can't understand this ! It wasn't long ago I contacted DVLA to question how trade plates should be displayed and they told me they MUST cover the original number plates on the car. They said if you didn't do this and the car you were driving wasn't taxed, the cameras would pick up the number plate and you would end up getting fined for driving an untaxed vehicle and also for failing to display trade plates correctly ! How can that have changed already ? Surely the cameras will still pick up the original number plates on the untaxed vehicle and automatically issue a fine ? And if you're not meant to display trade plates inside the vehicle and now not over the original vehicle number plates, how exactly are you meant to display them ?

Happy to say I've sold the 320d today and taken a nice 118d Sport in part exchange. Customer said they'd seen the 320d advertised a few weeks ago and we're amazed it was still for sale !

Well I've had a phone call this evening from a woman who saw the 320d on my Facebook page, she wants to come and view it on Saturday morning so fingers crossed it'll be moving on.

Thanks for all the comments so far. I was expecting more along the lines of "You're no good at what you're doing" or "If you can't sell that then you shouldn't be doing this" etc. It's given me more confidence hearing the more established dealers experiences and also surprised me. I think what's made me more worried is the other car I have in stock is an Audi A4 1.8t convertible S line which I made the fatal mistake of buying for somebody who then decided they didn't want a convertible! That was in October last year so I've decided to sit on that one and wait for the weather to get better ( Could be waiting a while for that) !

As a part time home trader, I only sell one or two cars at a time. I have had a 2010 Bmw 320d M Sport 4 door saloon for sale since the start of December with virtually no interest at all. This is the first time this has happened to me. I've had two of these models before and sold both within 3 - 5 days of advertising. This one has 85k miles, Bmw dealer history, I've had it serviced by an independent bmw specialist which included a vehicle check, it's a 6 speed manual, silver with unmarked leather interior. I paid Cap clean for it in November plus delivery, plus service costs etc and I believe I have it advertised at just under current retail value on Autotrader. Has been on eBay numerous times but all I've had is ridiculous part ex offers ! I also have it on my Facebook page which has had some interest but nothing serious. What would you guys do in this situation?

Good luck. I'm not far off making the same decision unfortunately! My first few years of trading from home went well and most of my customers were decent people. In recent months I've found it harder to make a profit with much more hassle from people about Consumer Rights Act etc . I'm just not enjoying it anymore.

As in I can add to a vehicle advert saying something like "Finance might be possible on this vehicle if you apply to Zuto" ?

I've been looking into accepting finance over the last couple of days and after searching on here I've approached Zuto. I've explained to them that I'm a sole trader trading from home and I'm not FCA registered. They said this wasn't a problem and as long as I could provide proof of address/bank account/trading etc then I should get approved. Well they've come back to me and said I'm now approved on their system and "we're good to go". They didn't give me any more information so I had to contact them and ask. They've told me that as I'm not FCA registered I'm not allowed to advertise that I can accept finance ! If the customer approaches Zuto of their own free will then that's fine but I can't advertise that ! Is that correct as my understanding was that I'm not actually providing finance myself and not making commission etc ?

I've had a response from the customer this evening and wanted to update everyone. After the email I sent to him on Sunday, he decided to go and buy the required parts from Bmw on Monday morning. He's spent the last few days fitting the parts himself and is happy that this has in fact cured the fault. He's now happy to accept my offer of paying for the parts in full and final settlement of the issue and will put that in writing to me. I'd like to say a massive thanks to everyone that offered me help and advice with this issue. It's very much appreciated.

This is the email I've sent to him: Dear Mr xxxx, I'm writing in response to your email dated 15/11/2016. Following the legal advice I've sought and also advice from other dealers on how they would deal with this situation, I have the following to say. You state it is up to me to prove the fault wasn't there at the time of purchase. I can easily do this in a number of ways: 1) When the vehicle went in to xxxx xxxx Vehicle Services on 02/07/2016 @ 79061 miles, it was subject to an Inspection 1 service. Part of this service includes a diagnostic check on the vehicle and any fault codes stored related to the SMG gearbox or otherwise would have been reported to me on the invoice which they were not. The vehicle was also road tested by xxxx xxxx Vehicle Services with no faults reported with the SMG gearbox or otherwise. 2) When the vehicle was returned to xxxx xxxx Vehicle Services on 13/07/2016 @ 79075 miles to have the rear brake lines replaced and the rear exhaust flange welded up, again the vehicle was road tested as it was driven elsewhere by them for the exhaust to be welded and no faults with the SMG gearbox or otherwise were reported. 3) When you visited me on 24/09/2016 to view the vehicle, you had ample time to fully inspect the vehicle. I drove the vehicle myself to demonstrate to you how the SMG gearbox works, the different modes etc and then you test drove the vehicle yourself. You purchased the vehicle with it showing 79,085 miles and never expressed any concerns or highlighted any issues. The invoice you have a copy of clearly states "The buyer has test driven the vehicle and is happy that no faults are present at the point of sale". 4) You drove the vehicle home to Barnsley, some 2.5 - 3 hours drive from me without fault and approximately 6 weeks had passed until you first contacted me on 04/11/2016 informing me of an issue with the SMG gearbox. You state that as a trader I have "a responsibility to ensure goods that are being sold by yourself are either as stated above or any faults are made known to the consumer". I've gone above and beyond my responsibility to do this by having the vehicle subjected to the Inspection 1 service at xxxx xxxx Vehicle Services and having all know faults rectified before sale and also the vehicle was given a new mot to ensure it's road worthiness. There were no known faults with the vehicle to make known to you, the consumer. I'm not prepared to have the vehicle repaired in the short timescale you're demanding as due to the nature of the vehicle it could well need further investigative work. You've also removed and refitted the instrument cluster without my consent and without using a reputable garage/business. I'm informed that the instrument cluster on these vehicles are very sensitive and any damage while removing/refitting could cause all sorts of faults in the future. You expressed to me through text message conversation ( which I have copies of ) that if the fault was diagnosed as the Gear Position Sensor then you would be happy to fit these parts yourself if you could get hold of them so I propose to offer the following: 1) I will pay for the required parts namely the Gear Position Sensor, if you are still prepared to fit it yourself as you offered. This would be in full and final settlement of the issue. 2) As a gesture of goodwill and something I'm not legally obliged to do, I would be prepared to offer you a refund for the vehicle. If you choose to do this, the vehicle must be returned by you directly to xxxx xxxx Vehicle Services at a date and time convenient for everyone involved. The vehicle will be subject to a full inspection to look for further issues or damage. If the vehicle is of satisfactory condition and without further issues or damage then a refund will be issued to you by bank transfer which is the same method as you used to pay me for the vehicle. Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 I'm entitled to a deduction of the refunded amount for wear and tear and also the extra owner on the V5. I would draw your attention to The Consumer Rights Act 2015 Section 24 sub-section 8, with regards to sub-section 10a. The selling price of the vehicle was £9730 minus your Mercedes taken in part exchange which I allowed £1000 for. As I have sold your Mercedes I cannot offer it back to you, however I'm legally entitled to give you back the part exchange value which in this case was £1000. There is no set figure in law to deduct for wear and tear/use of the vehicle and the extra owner on the V5 but it's been suggested to me that a fair amount would be £500 plus £295 for the extra owner on the V5 so a total deduction of £795. The total refund paid back to you on satisfactory inspection of the vehicle plus all relevant documents/paperwork/keys etc being returned would be £8935. I would need you to confirm the mileage on the vehicle before acceptance of this offer.

I had this issue when I sold my first car as a trader. I phoned Dvla and they told me the customer signs as the new keeper and you leave the registered keepers part blank. As said above though, doing it online is simple and the customer gets the new V5 much quicker.

He said once he realised there was a fault with the gearbox, he searched some forums and realised there should be a warning light on the dash indicating a fault and there wasn't. He said it should light up when the ignition is switched on then go out after a few seconds which it didn't do. He then said he removed the binnacle to investigate and found the warning light to be taped over with black electrical tape which in his mind proves this fault was present when sold and had been hidden from him. I can't get through to him that even if this light was covered over, it would have done nothing to hide the fault with the gearbox and wouldn't have got him 3 hours home ! I've also now got confirmation from the Bmw specialist who inspected it before sale that the diagnostic check found no fault codes and they also road tested the vehicle with no faults found.

Thanks for all the opinions and advice from everybody, it's been very helpful. I'm going to put an email to him tomorrow but due to what others have said on here I'm not going to offer to repair it. I think it's obvious that even if I were to repair the suspected fault, it's highly likely he's going to find something else to complain about, related to this fault or otherwise. He's obviously of the belief that the consumer rights act is fully on his side and I can just see no end of trouble from him in the future. You can imagine him out and about abusing this car in the mistaken belief that if he breaks something it doesn't matter as I have to pay for it !! I will be offering him a refund minus expenses/wear and tear etc on the basis that the vehicle is returned to me for inspection before any money is paid to him. This has taken up so much of my time already that I'm now of the opinion that if my offer isn't acceptable and he wants to take me to court over it then so be it, I'll defend accordingly.

So I made an informal offer to the guy to pay for the required parts at some £320 if he was willing to fit himself as he first suggested. This is what it got back from him: The car needs to be in working order and if something other than the sensor is faulty or broken then it needs to be fixed. I'm not prepared to agree for just the sensor to be replaced as it may not fix the car. (Although it might do in which case we are both happy) I can't take that risk. I am covered by the consumer rights act so whatever the cost it needs to be fixed. I have the right to a faultless car as stated in the sale agreement and it would be stupid of me to agree to just the sensor and it turn out to be a gearbox at 7k or the pump. Obviously they are worst case scenarios but it's still a risk I can't take.

One final option to throw in then. What if I contact the customer stating this is not a formal offer but while we were communicating amicably and before he sent the email threatening court action, he suggested he would be willing to fit the gear position sensor himself if he could get one. I think he's some sort of diy mechanic and his dad is a mechanic also. If I offer for him to get the sensor and fit it himself, then I'll pay for the sensor and if he's happy with that then happy days. If he refuses, which he's entitled to, then I'm back to offering a refund after having the vehicle inspected etc or refuse to do anything and go to court !

Well this brings me back to what Lawgistics advised me on regarding the cluster being removed. I could potentially refuse to repair on the grounds that the customer has interfered with the vehicle ( he emailed me photos of the cluster removed from the vehicle ). During the long text message conversations with him over a few days, he said if the gearbox fault was a new issue and wasn't present at the point of sale, then he'd take that as bad luck and wouldn't expect me to pay for it being a second hand car etc. I have copies of these messages. I think he's really playing the point that he's been deceived/mis-sold the vehicle that had an existing fault and that I can't prove otherwise. So for arguments sake, what would happen if I refuse to do anything on the grounds that I can prove this was not an existing fault and the customer has interfered with the vehicle potentially causing more future faults/issues ?

Just wanted to put up the email I received from the customer to see what people make of it ? Hi, As you are aware, I have a fault with the SMG system on my car (BMW M3 E46 convertible) which I purchased from you on 24th September 2016. After I discovered the fault and did some investigating, I found that the warning light to highlight the issue had been taped up with black electrical tape to hide the fault - you are also aware of this. I asked you for an opportunity to either provide me with a refund or repair the car to satisfactory condition to which you refused. Therefore, I have been in touch with trading standards and they have advised me of he following: As with the sale of goods act, under the consumer rights act all products must be of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described. Satisfactory quality - goods shouldn't be damaged or faulty when you receive them. Fit for purpose - The goods should be fit for the purpose they are supplied for As described - The product must match the description given to you. If I discover the fault within the first 6 months of purchasing the vehicle, then it is presumed that the fault was there at the time of purchase. It is up to the trader to prove that the fault wasn't present at the time of purchase, not up to myself to prove that it was present. As I informed you of the fault after 30 days of purchasing the vehicle, I am not entitled to an immediate refund, however I am entitled to a free satisfactory repair. Should the attempt at repair not fix the issue, then at this point I am entitled to a replacement like for like or to return the goods for a full refund. As the car is sat on my drive and I am barely able to drive it half a mile, the car isn't fit for purpose and it isn't of satisfactory quality as it is faulty. You informed me that all lights were checked by xxxx xxxx BMW specialist as stated on the inspection service receipt. However this would normally only cover actual lights such as brakes, headlights, reverse lights etc. Unless diagnostics were run and a report is present to show that no faults are present at the time of sale, then this isn't sufficient for proving the fault wasn't present. You also stated that xxxx xxxx suggested he could have missed the warning light not lighting up on the instrument cluster. Whether you were aware of the fault or not, as a trader, you have a responsibility to ensure goods that are being sold by yourself are either as stated above or any faults are made known to the consumer. I am giving you the opportunity to repair the vehicle by anyone of your choice (I would suggest xxxx xxxx) and to be in full working order or at least booked in with a specialist 7 days from todays date so by 22/11/2016. Failure to comply with this request will result in further legal action. I hope to get this matter resolved with you with minimum dispute. Thank You So I should add that I only refused to refund/repair when the customer first contacted me by text message stating he had been deceived/mis-sold the car, was looking at a £5k repair so wanted me to pay for it or give a full refund for the car. I obviously argued the point that I hadn't deceived him and nor was he mis-sold the car. He signed the invoice stating he had test driven the vehicle and that it was free from any faults at the point of sale. Obviously it was free from fault for some 7 weeks after purchase. We were having amicable conversations through text message beyond the initial contact and I've kept copies of these. So what do people think if I respond to his email by stating firstly that I can prove the fault wasn't present at the point of sale by the fact he'd signed an invoice saying so, it was fine on his 3 hour drive home and for the 7 week period before he contacted me. Also, the vehicle had an Inspection 1 service at the Bmw specialist which includes having the diagnostic system read. Any such fault with the SMG gearbox would've had a fault code stored and as there were no faults reported on the service then I believe that this is sufficient to prove the fault wasn't there. I'm not prepared to have the car repaired in the short timescale he's demanding as with the nature of the vehicle it could well need further investigative work and he's also stated that if he's not happy with the attempted repair then he's entitled to a "replacement like for like, or to return the goods for a full refund" ! He's also removed the instrument cluster without my consent, therefore I haven't had the opportunity to inspect these myself to see if the warning light was taped over or not. ( Having said that, how do I know if he's removed/refitted these correctly without damaging them ) ? As a gesture of goodwill, and to get the issue resolved for the customer quickly, I require the vehicle to be returned to me ( my local bmw specialist has agreed to have it returned direct to them ) where it will be inspected before I issue a full refund for the vehicle minus £1000 part exchange value of his px and minus £500 for wear and tear ( aslong as no further issues are identified during the inspection ) as I'm entitled to do under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 Section 24 sub-section 8, with regards to sub-section 10a. ( I believe the £500 for wear and tear to be a fair amount ) If anyone can add anything or if you think I should change/remove something then please let me know ?

Thanks for all the replies. The BMW M3 is a convertible, 2003 with 79,000 miles. Sold for £10,000 minus the px I gave £1000 for. Just spoke to Lawgistics who've gave me some advice. They said they'd potentially defend on the basis the guy has removed the instrument cluster and cannot prove whether the fault light was taped up or not. I can prove the fault wasn't present at point of sale and it's been 7/8 weeks until he's contacted me. If I need to go further with Lawgistics I'd need to become a member. I'm still really confused as to what's best to do. I'm still thinking refund but thinking he's not going to accept deduction for wear/tear etc.

Before I make a decision on what to do, what do people think of me making an offer to contribute 50% of the costs of repair for the customer to get it repaired asap at his nearest Bmw specialist ?

It was Quarry Motors in Sheffield ! They quoted 6 hours labour minimum but my local Bmw specialist said 3 hours maximum and they've done quite a few of them. I'm really torn which way to go, repair or refund. The £560 repair will be much higher than that by the time I've had the car transported to me and then back to the customer once it's been repaired. I agree with the comment about people knowing what they're getting into when buying one of these cars. Unfortunately once someone like this guy reads the consumer rights act, they assume that I have to fork out for any faults within 6 months of selling the car !

I actually still have the px Mercedes due to being consistently messed around by time wasters! So if I kept the px and took the refund value at the total selling price minus £500 for 7 weeks wear and tear etc, would that seem a reasonable offer ?

I was willing to contribute towards the repair and thought we were getting something sorted out until I received his email. He was trying to take the car to some breakers in Sheffield who also repair cars, they quoted £700 plus vat but said it's rarely just one fault and the gearbox probably needs further work once it's out. My local Bmw specialist who I trust quoted £560 parts labour and including vat and said this breakers in Sheffield don't know what they're talking about. Due to the nature of the car, it needs to go to someone who knows what they're doing with it. He's suggested I get the car collected from him ( it would need to be trailered ) have it repaired and then returned to him at no cost to him but he's given me a 7 day deadline to do that before he starts court proceedings! Can I offer to get it repaired at my local Bmw specialist if he incurs the cost of transporting it to me ?