Dealer working from home vs Neighbour (problem)

[premi-motor 7]

Hi all

Being recently made redundant from a long-term position, I've started to try to work at home due to very limited funds meaning I can not commit to a site.

I have a large, enclosed driveway and keep cars here - some of, not all, are for sale.

None of the vehicles are marked up and obviously there are no signs to suggest I am trading vehicles.

It is also the family home and we have lived here for 31 years.

Last month, a nosey, non-immediate neighbour (who happens to be chairman of the residents association - you know the type!) has become offended that I have a few cars which are kept on the driveway - ost of them out of sight.

He visited in person to say that "some of the residents" had raised it at the last meeting and it was his duty to tell me. He asked me what I'd like to tell them, of which I suggested that if it offends them come and see me and I'll happily talk to them. None of "them" have.

He then stated me that he "used to be a solicitor" and explained that I needed planning permission "which I would not get" to operate such a business from home.

A quick Google search indicates none of this is the case:

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/56/working_from_home

 

Today, another neighbour called me out of courtesy to let me know that this guy has now circulated an email to the residents of the lane of which I am excluded.

It explains about me and that I have been "reported". (Interestingly, the same neighbour who tipped me off about the email has also experienced issues with him - He said that residents were concerned about building work taking place in his rear garden, when only he and one other house can actually see it).

I'm considering lots of things as you can imagine, but the most realistic is reporting him for bullying and harassment as I think that he's the sneery type where things will only get worse.

Has anyone else had this?

Any advice on where I stand appreciated.

G.

 

 

 

[EPV 631]

You WILL need planning. I have no idea on the credibility of that website you have quoted but seen as you seem to be clinging to it, it clearly means you will need planning;

 

Will your home no longer be used mainly as a private residence? No

Will your business result in a marked rise in traffic or people calling? YES

Will your business involve any activities unusual in a residential area? YES

Will your business disturb your neighbours at unreasonable hours or create other forms of nuisance such as noise or smells? MAYBE

You are in my opinion, in the wrong and need to go about things in the right manner. You have a neighbour who has a hard on for you, there's nothing you can do about this and the days of keeping on the QT are gone.

Apply for planning and if you obtain it, carry on about your business as normal. If you don't, well, get some premises.

I think you have potentially gone about this the wrong way. You should have made every effort to keep it on the lowdown and instead you have filled your drive up with a load of cars. It's advertising to all and sundry what you're up to. Unfortunately you have a busy c*nt who has made it his business to be a hero on behalf of mankind so you better do something about it.

[trade vet 697]

A lot of us have had similar things in the past with neighbours.First of all I would be asking for a copy of the residents association rules.I would also be trying to find out about this guy.He could be a fraud,a lot of these busy body do good types can be.Solicitors tend to know about each other in their area and most of them would not get involved in something like this.

[premi-motor 7]

Thanks both.

@EPV, the answer to all of the questions are actually no.

 

The link is from the Government's own web-site: https://www.gov.uk/planning-permission-england-wales

• Q: Will your home no longer be used mainly as a private residence?
• A: YES: It will mainly be a private residence (both parents live here (retired) + myself as split up with ex so it is my home too)

• Q: Will your business result in a marked rise in traffic or people calling?
• A: No. I don't actually have many cars as stock. Any viewing would be by appointment only, and probably most would be off-site.

• Q: Will your business involve any activities unusual in a residential area?
• A: No. I am not working on cars. All work to vehicles is done away from home at a body shop, garage or MOT station etc.

• Will your business disturb your neighbours at unreasonable hours or create other forms of nuisance such as noise or smells?
• No. 

It goes on to say:

"Whatever business you carry out from your home, whether it involves using part of it as a bed-sit or for 'bed and breakfast' accommodation, using a room as your personal office, providing a childminding service, for hairdressing, dressmaking or music teaching, or using buildings in the garden for repairing cars or storing goods connected with a business - the key test is: is it still mainly a home or has it become business premises?

If you are in doubt you may apply to your council for a Certificate of Lawful Use for the proposed activity, to confirm it is not a change of use and still the lawful use."

 

Only one person has an issue with it, and as far as I know everyone else in the lane seem to be supportive. Thinking of it, the guy also raised an issue "on behalf of the residents" as another neighbour kept a split-screen camper off road under a weatherproof cover next to his detached garage...

G.

[ExCouncilJobsworth 27]

Hi there planning legislation is a massive grey area and it depends on who you speak to at the council and the outcome can vary.

There isn't a material change of use as pointed out by one of the posters above. 

This is similar to someone running a home business like eBay or the local spotty teen running a window tint service. 

Your cars are advertised on the net and you dont have a walk in business thus your customers attend by appointments. So there is no large quantities of traffic. 

Your neighbour could have lots of visitors day in day out that are loud and this could go on for several hours of the day. Whereas your punter might be there for 20 mins has a rant and goes. 

You could get planning permission i mean apply for it or you could operate as you are now. In either case if the LPA approaches you they may advise you to apply or alternatively serve an enforcement notice for you to cease the use of business.

If you are refused planning permission or served with a notice in either case you can make a free of charge appeal to the inspectorate. If you appoint a planning consultant to act on your behalf you will obviously have to pay his fees. 

The appeal process can take months and in this time you can still operate.

This neighbour sounds like some residence association leader we used to have in a west London council area...always making complaints even though he might be 5 or 6 miles away...

He was racist... So do ask yourself are you being picked on because of being a minority on the road? Might sound silly but when i did planning inspections i would go round and find no issue then the complainant would twist it and make a different allegation... All whilst the complained told me this neighbour has called the police, other council depts and what else on me!

They always use the solicitor excuse to scare you off...

I now sell 2 to 3 cars here and there and my neighbours are fantastic. I always tell the punters off if they park nearly blocking a neighbours drive etc so make sure your punters dont prat about and it is a pain when the eastern europeans turn up with 10 of them to view a £1200 runner...

Edited December 1, 2018 by ExCouncilJobsworth

[EPV 631]

1 minute ago, premi-motor said:

Thanks both.

@EPV, the answer to all of the questions are actually no.

 

The link is from the Government's own web-site: https://www.gov.uk/planning-permission-england-wales

• Q: Will your home no longer be used mainly as a private residence?
• A: YES: It will mainly be a private residence (both parents live here (retired) + myself as split up with ex so it is my home too)

• Q: Will your business result in a marked rise in traffic or people calling?
• A: No. I don't actually have many cars as stock. Any viewing would be by appointment only, and probably most would be off-site.

• Q: Will your business involve any activities unusual in a residential area?
• A: No. I am not working on cars. All work to vehicles is done away from home at a body shop, garage or MOT station etc.

• Will your business disturb your neighbours at unreasonable hours or create other forms of nuisance such as noise or smells?
• No. 

It goes on to say:

"Whatever business you carry out from your home, whether it involves using part of it as a bed-sit or for 'bed and breakfast' accommodation, using a room as your personal office, providing a childminding service, for hairdressing, dressmaking or music teaching, or using buildings in the garden for repairing cars or storing goods connected with a business - the key test is: is it still mainly a home or has it become business premises?

If you are in doubt you may apply to your council for a Certificate of Lawful Use for the proposed activity, to confirm it is not a change of use and still the lawful use."

 

Only one person has an issue with it, and as far as I know everyone else in the lane seem to be supportive. Thinking of it, the guy also raised an issue "on behalf of the residents" as another neighbour kept a split-screen camper off road under a weatherproof cover next to his detached garage...

G.

Ok, well you didn't state that appointments would be off site. The question is "will the business result in a marked increase of traffic to your property" and until you told me that all appointments will be done away from the premises, I have worked on the basis it would be easy to demonstrate that if you had say 3 visitors a week, and you then had 6 per week because of the business, thats a 100% increase, or "a significant increase"

Secondly, I think you will struggle to convince people to commit to buying a car from you if you are meeting them "off site" as it looks, well, how it looks. 

Your business WILL involve activities unusual in a residential area. Car sales in a residential area is unusual. Most pitches, lots etc are on business estates etc. 

I'm not here to deflate you mate, I'm here to open your eyes to what may happen. Get in touch with your council, explain what is happening or what will happen (make out like you are considering it rather than doing it) and you'll know where you stand. 

[ExCouncilJobsworth 27]

30 minutes ago, trade vet said:

A lot of us have had similar things in the past with neighbours.First of all I would be asking for a copy of the residents association rules.I would also be trying to find out about this guy.He could be a fraud,a lot of these busy body do good types can be.Solicitors tend to know about each other in their area and most of them would not get involved in something like this.

Lol at the rules.

They're non statutory! 

Give him an xmas card and some chocs! He might calm down or cry bribery

[EPV 631]

Just now, ExCouncilJobsworth said:

Lol at the rules.

They're non statutory! 

Give him an xmas card and some chocs! He might calm down or cry bribery

I get the feeling you may be a reg on here who wants anonymity and I think I've sussed out who you are but I'm not blowing your cover!

I'd be more tempted to iron this c*nt out rather than give him chocolate 

[Arfur Dealy 823]

31 minutes ago, EPV said:

You WILL need planning. I have no idea on the credibility of that website you have quoted but seen as you seem to be clinging to it, it clearly means you will need planning;

 

Will your home no longer be used mainly as a private residence? No

Will your business result in a marked rise in traffic or people calling? YES

Will your business involve any activities unusual in a residential area? YES

Will your business disturb your neighbours at unreasonable hours or create other forms of nuisance such as noise or smells? MAYBE

You are in my opinion, in the wrong and need to go about things in the right manner. You have a neighbour who has a hard on for you, there's nothing you can do about this and the days of keeping on the QT are gone.

Apply for planning and if you obtain it, carry on about your business as normal. If you don't, well, get some premises.

I think you have potentially gone about this the wrong way. You should have made every effort to keep it on the lowdown and instead you have filled your drive up with a load of cars. It's advertising to all and sundry what you're up to. Unfortunately you have a busy c*nt who has made it his business to be a hero on behalf of mankind so you better do something about it.

James, you are wrong. He has every write to sell cars from his home as long as the main use of the property hasn’t changed. In fact the government encourages it. 

[EPV 631]

Just now, Arfur Dealy said:

James, you are wrong. He has every write to sell cars from his home as long as the main use of the property hasn’t changed. In fact the government encourages it. 

So the other criteria (the stuff about number of visitors etc) is academic? If so, great! I did say I wasn't sure about the credibility of the site quoted.

[ExCouncilJobsworth 27]

1 minute ago, EPV said:

I get the feeling you may be a reg on here who wants anonymity and I think I've sussed out who you are but I'm not blowing your cover!

I'd be more tempted to iron this c*nt out rather than give him chocolate 

Now now... Ironing him out will result in you being nicked. 

Im a reg reader... Lots of fun stuff to read here but i thought something i can comment on with valuable advice

[EPV 631]

Just now, ExCouncilJobsworth said:

Now now... Ironing him out will result in you being nicked. 

Im a reg reader... Lots of fun stuff to read here but i thought something i can comment on with valuable advice

Yes but it will be much more fun than giving him a Toblerone 

[ExCouncilJobsworth 27]

2 minutes ago, Arfur Dealy said:

James, you are wrong. He has every write to sell cars from his home as long as the main use of the property hasn’t changed. In fact the government encourages it. 

100%

Before i retired from council... They were rolling out working from home.

So you could work from home half of the week. And some colleagues went from home to site visits.

Imagine all the planning applications that would be submitted to the LPA to do this

2 minutes ago, EPV said:

Yes but it will be much more fun than giving him a Toblerone 

You're drunk lol

[EPV 631]

Just now, ExCouncilJobsworth said:

100%

Before i retired from council... They were rolling out working from home.

So you could work from home half of the week. And some colleagues went from home to site visits.

Imagine all the planning applications that would be submitted to the LPA to do this

You're drunk lol

Sober as a judge, squire.

So, the only "planning" restriction here then is if the use of the property is changed? The stuff about number of visitors, unusual activities in a residential street etc is all academic? Good to know because I had a visit from the council myself not long ago in the exact same set of circumstances....

[trade vet 697]

5 minutes ago, ExCouncilJobsworth said:

100%

Before i retired from council... They were rolling out working from home.

So you could work from home half of the week. And some colleagues went from home to site visits.

Imagine all the planning applications that would be submitted to the LPA to do this

You're drunk lol

Hi ECJ

I would like to hear more from you please,about anything by the way.

[ExCouncilJobsworth 27]

Just now, EPV said:

Sober as a judge, squire.

So, the only "planning" restriction here then is if the use of the property is changed? The stuff about number of visitors, unusual activities in a residential street etc is all academic? Good to know because I had a visit from the council myself not long ago in the exact same set of circumstances....

What did they say?

No no. Because you dont have an open pitch at home... Driveway with 20 cars... A boards at main roads inviting people in / banners etc. You're not open 9 to 5... Etc

Material change for a house =

1) downstairs becomes a dental practice upstairs is flats.

2) Or the whole house is now a GP surgery.

The volumes of traffic Mon to Fri is unbelievable...

And even so as said before its a grey area... So your timings will be looked at. "Ah Mr Billies come between 10am to 2pm mostly to beat the traffic. And residents are at work during these hours"

The other factor is the impact on neighbours and privacy. So for all the examples here gp and dentals would cause congestion noise make the area busy. Whereas you will get 5 or 10  or whatever fixed appts. And of course they wont be at stupid o clock...

Hope that helps.

3 minutes ago, trade vet said:

Hi ECJ

I would like to hear more from you please,about anything by the way.

Thank you. 

How can i help?

[EPV 631]

3 minutes ago, ExCouncilJobsworth said:

What did they say?

No no. Because you dont have an open pitch at home... Driveway with 20 cars... A boards at main roads inviting people in / banners etc. You're not open 9 to 5... Etc

Material change for a house =

1) downstairs becomes a dental practice upstairs is flats.

2) Or the whole house is now a GP surgery.

The volumes of traffic Mon to Fri is unbelievable...

And even so as said before its a grey area... So your timings will be looked at. "Ah Mr Billies come between 10am to 2pm mostly to beat the traffic. And residents are at work during these hours"

The other factor is the impact on neighbours and privacy. So for all the examples here gp and dentals would cause congestion noise make the area busy. Whereas you will get 5 or 10  or whatever fixed appts. And of course they wont be at stupid o clock...

Hope that helps.

Ok, so the other criteria then, such as traffic, noise etc is a consideration, its not just the material use of the building. So with that said, should the OP go for planning then, given that he would likely get it? This would basically shut his c*nt of a neighbour up?

When the council visited me, they closed the case as they could see no evidence of a motor trade business being ran from the premises. I've always gone out of my way to keep it on the QT as much as possible, it would appear one of my immediate neighbours have taken offence at me having the odd car painted in the middle of the day 

[Arfur Dealy 823]

Planning doesn’t need to be applied for, the property is a family home, the  government want to encourage small business. 

 

[ExCouncilJobsworth 27]

1 minute ago, EPV said:

Ok, so the other criteria then, such as traffic, noise etc is a consideration, its not just the material use of the building. So with that said, should the OP go for planning then, given that he would likely get it? This would basically shut his c*nt of a neighbour up?

When the council visited me, they closed the case as they could see no evidence of a motor trade business being ran from the premises. I've always gone out of my way to keep it on the QT as much as possible, it would appear one of my immediate neighbours have taken offence at me having the odd car painted in the middle of the day 

No he wont likely get it.

Why? Because mr residenent association bell end will make comments on the application and "will get others to" as well

Every time an app is submitted letters to any effected parties are sent out... Their comments will be taken into consideration. It's actually a c*unt way of getting someone closed down... Its a double whammy in a strange way.. He tells you that you need PP then you submit it..then he gets others and himself to make comments against it...

In such cases its refused he has to appeal and needs a good consultant to dig up case law etc and put strong case forward

Remember PP includes the ovebearing impact on to those in vicinity... Just like how your neighbour gets his house extended... It is overbearing your house and blocking light etc...

You're asking for trouble if you are painting cars at home lol... You need extraction fans etc

3 minutes ago, Arfur Dealy said:

Planning doesn’t need to be applied for, the property is a family home, the  government want to encourage small business. 

 

Exactly.

In the likelihood of any appeal you can say premises costs huge rent, business rates etc,utilities etc etc and in this economic climate plus brexit as a small business i will struggle...

It brings more fields into play...for you to counter attack mr n00binator next door...

[EPV 631]

It's on the street, smart repairs, mate. I don't have a drive and even if I did I wouldn't be painting cars full time on it. 

So, I need to understand what we're advising our OP here.

If we're saying he's doing nothing wrong and the government are encouraging people to work from home etc then he is best off basically ignoring the neighbours? 

If the council DID turn up, similarly to my scenario, if he can convince the visiting officer that he isn't either changing the material use of the building, or causing his neighbours a grievance, he should be sweet? And that applying for PP would actually make things worse?

[ExCouncilJobsworth 27]

1 minute ago, EPV said:

It's on the street, smart repairs, mate. I don't have a drive and even if I did I wouldn't be painting cars full time on it. 

So, I need to understand what we're advising our OP here.

If we're saying he's doing nothing wrong and the government are encouraging people to work from home etc then he is best off basically ignoring the neighbours? 

If the council DID turn up, similarly to my scenario, if he can convince the visiting officer that he isn't either changing the material use of the building, or causing his neighbours a grievance, he should be sweet? And that applying for PP would actually make things worse?

All correct except...

Neighbour is causing him grieveance - this is the correct version. 

Hold on are you sure you didnt make this topic under a different name?

 

Also he might want to reduce num of cars. Sounds like he got few too many. I personally have 2 to 3 at most at any one time. But wont have none at the current auction prices

[premi-motor 7]

Thanks everyone. This is really great info... and good to know I'm not the only one.

@EPV - Appreciated your advice earlier too. It's exactly why I asked, and I need both sides to prepare so any input is incredibly valuable.

In regards to off-site viewings, if a deal was to be done then paperwork can be sorted back at the house if need be. But I'd want to keep ANY and ALL activity at the house to a minimum. My father is receiving palliative care at home and is bed-bound so having visits isn't appropriate and all is adding to making things tough. This pr*ck is the icing on the cake right now and I don't need it.

Had to laugh at the ironing the guy out comment too... I have anger management issues and managed to stop taking the meds, but it's taking everything not to go and have a chat right now. I know that's not the right way to go, but it's really winding me up - not least because potentially it could cost me a lot of money and time and for what?

I dont want to g down the PP route simply because if I ask they *could* say no and I'm stumped - whereas as it stands, I actually don't think I'm doing anything wrong. 

What with him coming around the first time then the email, there is a course of action he is taking and I think I can now report him for harrassment... It's genuinely affecting my levels of stress at a very hard time.

...an interesting thought!

 

G.

[EPV 631]

2 minutes ago, ExCouncilJobsworth said:

All correct except...

Neighbour is causing him grieveance - this is the correct version. 

Hold on are you sure you didnt make this topic under a different name?

 

Also he might want to reduce num of cars. Sounds like he got few too many. I personally have 2 to 3 at most at any one time. But wont have none at the current auction prices

Well, I'll take your advice at face value and say thanks.

There you go OP, disregard my first post, the thing to do here is nothing other than a little bit of housework (reduce the number of cars) and carry on regardless.

[Arfur Dealy 823]

4 minutes ago, premi-motor said:

Thanks everyone. This is really great info... and good to know I'm not the only one.

@EPV - Appreciated your advice earlier too. It's exactly why I asked, and I need both sides to prepare so any input is incredibly valuable.

In regards to off-site viewings, if a deal was to be done then paperwork can be sorted back at the house if need be. But I'd want to keep ANY and ALL activity at the house to a minimum. My father is receiving palliative care at home and is bed-bound so having visits isn't appropriate and all is adding to making things tough. This pr*ck is the icing on the cake right now and I don't need it.

Had to laugh at the ironing the guy out comment too... I have anger management issues and managed to stop taking the meds, but it's taking everything not to go and have a chat right now. I know that's not the right way to go, but it's really winding me up - not least because potentially it could cost me a lot of money and time and for what?

I dont want to g down the PP route simply because if I ask they *could* say no and I'm stumped - whereas as it stands, I actually don't think I'm doing anything wrong. 

What with him coming around the first time then the email, there is a course of action he is taking and I think I can now report him for harrassment... It's genuinely affecting my levels of stress at a very hard time.

...an interesting thought!

 

G.

Show him a link to this post 

Watch him disappear 

[trade vet 697]

9 minutes ago, ExCouncilJobsworth said:

No he wont likely get it.

Why? Because mr residenent association bell end will make comments on the application and "will get others to" as well

Every time an app is submitted letters to any effected parties are sent out... Their comments will be taken into consideration. It's actually a c*unt way of getting someone closed down... Its a double whammy in a strange way.. He tells you that you need PP then you submit it..then he gets others and himself to make comments against it...

In such cases its refused he has to appeal and needs a good consultant to dig up case law etc and put strong case forward

Remember PP includes the ovebearing impact on to those in vicinity... Just like how your neighbour gets his house extended... It is overbearing your house and blocking light etc...

You're asking for trouble if you are painting cars at home lol... You need extraction fans etc

ECJ,I can identify with that,I have had amusing run ins with neighbours but the best one was an industrial unit on a trading estate.Hope I haven’t already mentioned this.There was a 100 car pitch already there and the guy objected to me because we did not have specific planning etc.I just said OK I will apply,however having checked for any objections under FOI,there were many from the other businesses on the estate including tyre and paint shops.I went to see them all and they new nothing about it,the objections were fraudulent.