The Right To Repair

[Dave2302 387]

The Right to Repair

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This from a WIRED news article...

The fight for our right to repair the stuff we own has suffered a huge setback.

As anyone who repairs electronics knows, keeping a device in working order often means fixing both its hardware and software. But a big California farmers’ lobbying group just blithely signed away farmers’ right to access or modify the source code of any farm equipment software. As an organization representing 2.5 million California agriculture jobs, the California Farm Bureau gave up the right to purchase repair parts without going through a dealer. Farmers can’t change engine settings, can’t retrofit old equipment with new features, and can’t modify their tractors to meet new environmental standards on their own. Worse, the lobbyists are calling it a victory...

Of course, Mercedes has also continued efforts to limit the rights and abilities of owners to repair and modify their vehicles. The W220 S-Class cars may eventually represent the high point of owner involvement with their cars.

The complete article can be found at https://www.wired.com/story/john-dee...ght-to-repair/

 

So that will be all of us Right Royally Fucked then !!

 

Comments please

Yes, at the moment the article only relates to Agricultural Equipment in California, but having been around the UK for my entire 56 years, I know fine well that within the next 15 years that will affect us all in UK !!

This is quickly becoming a reality now  

[Dave2302 387]

3 minutes ago, zakh92 said:

imagine if EVER single manufacturer applied this to their products,

They already are, that is my point, not just Mercedes, but a lot of other Car manufacturers are making their diagnostic and repair impossible unless I pay a subscription of £2000 - £10,000 each year to have access to their Server for various Dealer Level diagnostic machines.

Mfrs only legally have to release 80% of their Software to the likes of Snap On, Autel, Delphi etc, and guess what, even right now that 80% is the stuff that is less likely to go wrong, so you can bet your life that even if, like me, you have the Dealer Kit for various makes, you cannot fix the most common problems on whatever car without paying the "Server Access" fees.

With the advent of the Autonomous Car, Government, Insurance Companies, Main Dealers, Manufacturers, Accident Investigators etc will all band together to push and pass laws that only permit the Manufacturers Approved Agents to repair their Vehicles...........................

So one little fault on anything you sell and you or your mechanic will not be allowed to fix it, you will be at the mercy of Main Stealers who will rape your ass and kill your profits on any Car etc. 

[justina3 518]

I have been hearing that scare story for over 25 years now and whilst it has got a lot worse it’s still no where near as bad a the press makes out. 

I remember fitting a category one alarm to a bmw 1998 model  and you had to put pins into the central locking loom to interface with the alarm and cars cdl it was the talk of the industry that we are all doomed.

skip forward twenty years and the alarm manufacturers now program the alarm before sending it to you and it’s four cables alarm fitted now only takes an hour old system would take up to six.

 

[Dave2302 387]

Look at the very common BSI module fault on Peuegeot Citroen, Generic Machines cannot touch it, if you have Pug Cit Dealer Level like me you still need a individual to each Car pin code which is specific to the car, and you can't use a used module and re program it until it has been virginised, because they are one time program then they lock..................

At the moment I send a used module to the Eeprommer Man, who sends it back Virginised, if I'm lucky he can get the Pin Code outta the buggered module, if not and the owner doesn't still have a note of that, Car is scrap, unless a friendly main dealer will give it me !!

In the future, owners will not be given that pin, Eepromer man will not be legally allowed to virginise, and you will need Server Access to program said module with your Lexia, for which they will not release the 2022 software anyway unless you are a Main Dealer.

So it will then be a scrap Car or pay thousands to Main Dealer to fix.

3 minutes ago, justina3 said:

I have been hearing that scare story for over 25 years now and whilst it has got a lot worse it’s still no where near as bad a the press makes out. 

I remember fitting a category one alarm to a bmw 1998 model  and you had to put pins into the central locking loom to interface with the alarm and cars cdl it was the talk of the industry that we are all doomed.

skip forward twenty years and the alarm manufacturers now program the alarm before sending it to you and it’s four cables alarm fitted now only takes an hour old system would take up to six.

 

Yes I hear what you are saying, I have been in this trade for 42 years, and heard and seen it all, the humble Central locking used to be the Devils Incarnate lol !!

As you rightly say, it has not been the end, but as the years have gone by things have certainly got a helluva lot tighter, and as each year passes it gets worse !!

[justina3 518]

29 minutes ago, Dave2302 said:

 

Yes I hear what you are saying, I have been in this trade for 42 years, and heard and seen it all, the humble Central locking used to be the Devils Incarnate lol !!

As you rightly say, it has not been the end, but as the years have gone by things have certainly got a helluva lot tighter, and as each year passes it gets worse !!

42 years well your a few years ahead of me and i am almost ready to retire so you must be overdue  when it does get as bad as they hint i hope to be as far away from the rain and cold as possible.

[Dave2302 387]

2 hours ago, justina3 said:

42 years well your a few years ahead of me and i am almost ready to retire so you must be overdue  when it does get as bad as they hint i hope to be as far away from the rain and cold as possible.

I already retired 11 years ago, I built this workshop for my own stuff, then after I'd done the Workshop Building, Hot Tub Conservatory, De Forestation, House Renovations, Log Cabin Building, More Boats, Shooting, Quad Biking, Stage Rallying etc I got bored and fed up with being half pissed down the local several days a week !!

I saw a market for Advanced Diagnostics and mid range fixer up Sales Cars etc, so I do what I do now, a small company has it's perks tax wise, and the nice thing is if I want a week or a month off I just do it  

Another few years and I might join you, Rain and Cold is the only thing I don't like about our location, although atm it's (Hot and Sunny here today), and beautiful when the Snow is on, everything else is perfect  

Cheers Dave

[Autolink100 34]

I'm just wondering what's going to happen if we leave the EU, Are the block exemption laws not an EU thing.

[It's me 615]

20 minutes ago, Autolink100 said:

I'm just wondering what's going to happen if we leave the EU, Are the block exemption laws not an EU thing.

We have agreed to carry on with all eu law until it might be deemed fit to change it ie i would like to see hanging returned

assuming we get a deal

otherwise we might be at the mercy of the manufacturers

remember many cars like merc already talk directly to the manufacturer sending data and in return they are advised when a service is due even the  purrgoet108 has a direct link to francais

[Dave2302 387]

1 hour ago, Autolink100 said:

I'm just wondering what's going to happen if we leave the EU, Are the block exemption laws not an EU thing.

Could be interesting, bu as I don't follow Brexit or anything political I wouldn't know which way it would swing

 

38 minutes ago, boring dave said:

remember many cars like merc already talk directly to the manufacturer sending data and in return they are advised when a service is due even the  purrgoet108 has a direct link to francais

Absolutely correct, they are all uploading to Mfrs Cloud these days, did you read the post about my 2017 E Class ??

Mel driving it, EML pops on, 3 minutes down the road her Phone, (BT'd to the Car), rings, she answers, it's MB Head Office UK, pleas drive to the nearest Service Centre !!

Poor Mel nearly shat herself, went to work and phoned me, I read it, EGR Circuit Fault, so then I deleted the Event Log on Engine, so they couldn't see I'd been in there, (invalidates Warranty etc), after that I phoned MB and booked it in, when I got there I told them it was an EGR Fault, should have seen there faces 

"And how do you know that Sir" said Service Receptionist, I replied "Because I'm very in tune with Mercedes Cars, I can feel what they are doing or not doing and when" ......................

She replies "I'm amazed, you are absolutely correct, we have the EMail here from Milton Keynes H/O, telling us to replace EGR Motor" !!

So yeah, it sends every little bit of Data back to MB !! 

Beware et al

[lastyboy 23]

Heard all of this when OBD and diagnostics first came around. Diagnostic manufacturers will get around most of it.

Cant see the point in worrying about it.

[Dave2302 387]

/\ /\ /\ LOL try getting a straight answer to this question from someone in that industry :-

"I understand that all these 3rd party Dealer Level Machines are hacked, cracked and patched versions of Chinese software, but can I do on line Coding and calibrations from a Server with your Version" .................................

Very very few will !!

Better still lets see who's all working on 5 year old Cars in 10 years time

I won't be, I'll probably jack it in in 5 years time

[It's me 615]

2 hours ago, tradex said:

Spending a bit of time in France, small villages and stuff, from what I'm told, the local village garages are no longer getting involved with late gear, just don't want to know....hence the incredibly high amount of old cars kicking around, it's not only the high price of s/h cars in France.

And fortunes to buy if you live there.

3 hours ago, Dave2302 said:

/\ /\ /\ LOL try getting a straight answer to this question from someone in that industry :-

"I understand that all these 3rd party Dealer Level Machines are hacked, cracked and patched versions of Chinese software, but can I do on line Coding and calibrations from a Server with your Version" .................................

Very very few will !!

Better still lets see who's all working on 5 year old Cars in 10 years time

I won't be, I'll probably jack it in in 5 years time

Why don't you do your own pin reading from eproms if you like a challenge?

[Dave2302 387]

Eyesight  I have swapped 8 leg Immo Chips on Merc ECU's, but any more than 8 legs and I'm screwed even with reading glasses and illuminated magnifier 

I really don't know how guys solder those buggers with 16 legs on all 4 sides back on, getting 'em off the board is no prob, easy peasy, just re soldering without getting a crossed solder !!

Plus Binary is a bit too Chinese for my liking, yeah I get it, but it takes me ages

Besides I'm busy enough actually fixing the Cars and a bit of Selling, I don't need any more work.

I don't like spending more than 4 - 6 hrs a day actually working on Cars, don't need to, more to life etc etc 

The Guy I use is good, return post service and very decent prices

3 hours ago, boring dave said:

the local village garages are no longer getting involved with late gear, just don't want to know

That's how I'm getting all my work, our local Garages send all late stuff my way, and I get to buy decent Stock from owners who say "Sod it I'll buy a new Car" !!

Those Billys don't understand what they are getting into, with their 16, 17 7 18 platers, and I'm not going to tell them 

My E Class will be retailed next year at 2 years old, and I'll buy another Brand New one. My older S55 will still be going strong long after all these later ones are deceased  

[Dave2302 387]

I'm having this conversation right now with some buddies around the world, about Right to Repair, Autonomous Cars etc these Guys are seriously involved in this at MB, and other Mfrs

Here's a couple of their Replies .................

Mr MB said to me ................

"David I’m Sure in 20 years you’ll be tired of working on people’s cars and will have enough fun tinkering on vintage “track only “ cars to keep you busy
it will be far safer to the public if ALL cars on the road are networked and linked to each other to prevent crashes, not just having a few autonomous cars and some still being people -operated . They all need to be autonomous and connected to be safe . You can’t have the variability of people driven cars mixed in . 
Bob lutz , former GM chairman has publicly stated we will all lose our right to drive on the streets within 20 years , just as we aren’t allowed to ride horses on the streets any more . It just won’t be safe . 
Further , while we can keep our vintage cars for off-road and track events, we likely won’t “own “ new cars any more . You will summon an autonomous car to come pick you up like Uber . There will be no parking problems and cars won’t sit unused 90% if the day as they are now . The autonomous cars will be working 24/7 which is actually the best way for machines to run (sitting unused all day , cold starts, and storage is terrible for cars ) 
There will be no ownership costs , just per use charges"

Mr Y says ...................

I was just having this conversation with a retired army robotics engineer. He nearly quoted you Mr MB, all or nothing. For selfish reasons, my vote is for nothing. I love my cars!

and Mr Z makes a valid point ...................

"We have already lost control of the political system.

How many cities are right now planning to outlaw internal combustion vehicles in the city?

If the autonomous vehicle system is implemented gradually, I suspect that the interstate/motorway/autobahn systems will be limited to automated vehicles first, followed by major highways and city streets, and eventually, all streets and roads."

 

Now, my old Granny used to say NASA would never land on the moon !!

(and no I'm not getting into the conspiracy debate on that one) lololol

[It's me 615]

16 minutes ago, Dave2302 said:

I'm having this conversation right now with some buddies around the world, about Right to Repair, Autonomous Cars etc these Guys are seriously involved in this at MB, and other Mfrs

Here's a couple of their Replies .................

Mr MB said to me ................

"David I’m Sure in 20 years you’ll be tired of working on people’s cars and will have enough fun tinkering on vintage “track only “ cars to keep you busy
it will be far safer to the public if ALL cars on the road are networked and linked to each other to prevent crashes, not just having a few autonomous cars and some still being people -operated . They all need to be autonomous and connected to be safe . You can’t have the variability of people driven cars mixed in . 
Bob lutz , former GM chairman has publicly stated we will all lose our right to drive on the streets within 20 years , just as we aren’t allowed to ride horses on the streets any more . It just won’t be safe . 
Further , while we can keep our vintage cars for off-road and track events, we likely won’t “own “ new cars any more . You will summon an autonomous car to come pick you up like Uber . There will be no parking problems and cars won’t sit unused 90% if the day as they are now . The autonomous cars will be working 24/7 which is actually the best way for machines to run (sitting unused all day , cold starts, and storage is terrible for cars ) 
There will be no ownership costs , just per use charges"

Mr Y says ...................

I was just having this conversation with a retired army robotics engineer. He nearly quoted you Mr MB, all or nothing. For selfish reasons, my vote is for nothing. I love my cars!

and Mr Z makes a valid point ...................

"We have already lost control of the political system.

How many cities are right now planning to outlaw internal combustion vehicles in the city?

If the autonomous vehicle system is implemented gradually, I suspect that the interstate/motorway/autobahn systems will be limited to automated vehicles first, followed by major highways and city streets, and eventually, all streets and roads."

 

Now, my old Granny used to say NASA would never land on the moon !!

(and no I'm not getting into the conspiracy debate on that one) lololol

Damm wanted a discussion on the non moon landing too

With relation to you friends I prefer the sites you mentioned before that discuss how we can keep on making a living without needing dealer access of course the dealer's hide behind things like corporate culpability couldn't possibly give you the pin code to the c3

[Dave2302 387]

LOL, They did land, I was watching them through my telescope 

Yes I agree with you I'd like to think there is a future for the younger members of the Motor Trade, but I do fear it will be repairing Johnny Cabs OUCH

My E Class is great on a long journey south, I can relax with all the Semi Autonomous Aids, but at least I can switch them off when I want and have some fun 

What I don't like is the "Nanny State Approach" ...................... You will all get picked up in Electric Fart Boxes

Wouldn't give me the pin code to a one owner from new old pensioners 2004 Berlingo either wankers !!

Eeprommer guy got it out of the old BSI though, good on the Eeprommers 

[Nick M.K. 574]

12 minutes ago, Dave2302 said:

Eeprommer guy

How many people on this forum know what an Eeprommer guy is and even more interestingly, how many people know and use an Eeprommer?? I know a Polish guy, really good. Very difficult to get hold of though.  

[Dave2302 387]

11 hours ago, Nick M.K. said:

How many people on this forum know what an Eeprommer guy is and even more interestingly, how many people know and use an Eeprommer?? I know a Polish guy, really good. Very difficult to get hold of though.  

You are probably right there Nick.

Give Justin at JC Cars Norwich a try 07799 492517, Google JC Cars Norwich, he talks plain English, good prices and postal service

You'll rarely get him on land line but I always get him on Mobile.

Tell him Dave from Scotland referred you

BTW, you're probably too young to remember this, I was only a boy, but why was it that Apollo 13 was the one that went drastically wrong, (I'm not supersticious) 

[Dave2302 387]

Twighlight Zone 

[Nick M.K. 574]

2 hours ago, Dave2302 said:

BTW, you're probably too young to remember this, I was only a boy, but why was it that Apollo 13 was the one that went drastically wrong

Apologies chaps, I was born in 1978, my earliest memories in terms of global events are probably from the Chernobyl disaster in '86.

[EPV 631]

34 minutes ago, Nick M.K. said:

Apologies chaps, I was born in 1978, my earliest memories in terms of global events are probably from the Chernobyl disaster in '86.

I reckon some of the clients we all deal with were created from a direct result of that

[Dave2302 387]

48 minutes ago, Nick M.K. said:

Apologies chaps, I was born in 1978, my earliest memories in terms of global events are probably from the Chernobyl disaster in '86.

Don't apologise Nick, my 40's were the best time of my life after the very expensive Divorce 

14 minutes ago, EPV said:

I reckon some of the clients we all deal with were created from a direct result of that

Absolute cracker .................. Coffee................ Pooter Screen  

[Nick M.K. 574]

6 hours ago, EPV said:

I reckon some of the clients we all deal with were created from a direct result of that