EPV

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Posts posted by EPV

  4. Posted

    28 minutes ago, grant8064 said:

    Yep they were out in force today...random day off from the office and the public just don't know what to do with themselves.

    I had one out wandering the forecourt, looked half sensible so I ventured out to ask if she needed assistance even though it was pelting down the white stuff. Asked if we sell vans, we don't so, straight back to the office. Ten minutes later I head out to get some food and run errands and she's still there so I check again, nope, still doesn't want anything. 45 minutes later i'm back from my jaunt and she's still there...gotta be a buyer right? I triple check...nope. Wants a van just fancied a look around.

    That's over an hour in -1 with snow coming down in jeans and a waterproof jacket, no gloves, no hat and no intention of buying anything. You do wonder sometimes...

    I don’t think she needs a car, a fucking straight jacket more like. 

  5. Posted

    24 minutes ago, justina3 said:

    What a nuts day today was lots of people off work due to weather and we get a rush 2 done and dusted and one refused a test drive who then got stroppy so booted his ass out the door. 

    bring on more snow i say 

     

     

    Out of curiosity, what was the story behind the stroppy one?

    • Like 1

  6. Posted

    6 minutes ago, Stalker said:

    Ive heard problems from a "good" BMW mastertech, that these engines can have oil pressure problems that sometimes can only be cured with a replacement engine/ or major stripdown and rebuild/recon.

     

     

    I’ve noticed that almost every assured report on BCA that pertains to a Mini or a certain age/mileage contains the comment under “Engine Running” as being a warning. 

  7. Posted · Edited by EPV

    14 minutes ago, Arfur Dealy said:

    We are all waiting for the snow down here in Devon, we have a great big throbbing amber warning for snow tomorrow and Friday..... Luckily, I'm slowing down for a well earned 3 weeks in Phuket...... Can't wait :)

    Waiting? My birds parents house is in Totnes, not far from you, and their dog has been rolling around in 2 inches of the stuff. has Exeter moved to the moon?

  9. Posted

    1 hour ago, BHM said:

    Sorry but I’m going to sound argumentative here but this job is about two things - the CARS  & the PUNTERS - and if either one of them is shite then you’ve potential for a problem. To my mind the paperwork is just a side show.

    Yes, if you want the best defence on the very rare occasion you may be taken to court then make sure you’ve done as much paperwork as possible. 

    This forum seems to be half full of traders thinking getting dragged to court would be a regular occurrence without a paperwork trail. It’s not. Simply get your cars right, don’t promise the earth & chase away the arsehole punters and your business should be fine.

    Just my two penneth worth & I know many will disagree.

    It’s not about being dragged to court mate  it’s about knowing our rights and knowing when we can refuse a customer certain things they aren’t entitled to? 

  10. Posted

    21 minutes ago, LawJaw said:

    The ‘Short Term Right to Reject’ is designed to allow consumers to return goods for a full refund if a fault appears in the first 30 days of ownership. The customer does not have to give you an opportunity to repair in this first 30 days.

    However, if the customer wants to exercise this Right they must:

    1. Prove there is a fault

    2. Prove that the fault was present at the point of sale

    For the purposes of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, a fault is something which renders the vehicle not of satisfactory quality, not fit for particular purpose or not as described.

    Unfortunately, some consumer organisations advise customers that they can return an item for any fault. This is not correct! 

    A wear and tear item or a minor fault such as a spark plug failure will not give the customer the Rights as set out in the Act. Your first consideration when a customer comes back to you asking for a repair or a refund under the Act should be ‘is this a fault which means the vehicle is not of satisfactory quality, not fit for purpose or not as described?’. Of course, your customer may have a different opinion to you but ultimately the law considers what a reasonable person would think about the fault considering factors such as the age, mileage and price paid for vehicle.

    If you have undertaken comprehensive pre-delivery checks and have kept good records of those checks, you will have made it very difficult for the consumer to prove the fault was there at the point of sale.

    It is obviously up to you how much time you want to put into your pre-delivery procedures but at Lawgistics we would recommend you:

    • Put a new MOT on each vehicle you sell
    • Complete a Pre-Delivery Checklist 
    • Get the customer to sign to say there were no apparent faults during the test drive
    • Have the vehicle checked and/or serviced by an independent garage
    • Take photos or even a video of the vehicle

    Once the 30 day Short Term Right to Reject period has passed, if the customer comes back to you with a fault, they must give you an opportunity to ‘Repair or Replace’ the goods before they can seek to reject the vehicle for a refund.

    Previously, under the Sale of Goods Act 1979, dealers could undertake several repairs before agreeing to a refund. However, this new Act now only gives you one chance to repair.

    To us, this makes the Act not fit for purpose as we all know that modern vehicles can be quite complex and so it is not always possible to correctly diagnose a fault at the first attempt, especially with intermittent faults. This then appears to put dealers at a disadvantage but there is nothing in the Act to prevent you from releasing a vehicle, as long as it is safe to do so, back to a customer and advising them that the repair job card remains open should they experience further problems.

    It is also possible to agree with a customer to undertake a repair under any warranty you may have sold with the car as that will constitute a contractual repair and so will not count as a statutory repair under the Act. In this instance, you will need to ensure you have the customer’s agreement to conduct any repairs under warranty (preferably in writing) so it is clear it is a contractual warranty repair and not a statutory repair – the difference being only a statutory repair will give rise to the ‘Final Right to Reject’.

    From day 31 i.e. on expiry of the Short Term Right to Reject period, the customer no longer has the right to reject the vehicle without giving you an opportunity to make a repair or provide a replacement. 

    However, if you have already made a statutory repair (as opposed to a contractual repair) then the customer does have the choice of rejecting the vehicle for a refund under the Final Right to Reject. In this instance, you can reduce the amount of the refund to take account of the use the consumer has had of the vehicle. There is no set formula for this deduction and so the figure will need to be calculated depending on many factors such as time of ownership, mileage covered, condition of the vehicle on return etc. 

    Ultimately if there is a disagreement between you and the consumer as to the amount of the deduction, it will up to the courts to decide.

    This should be made a sticky. Exactly my understanding of the situation. 

    • Like 2

  11. Posted

    1 hour ago, have a word with the wife said:

    Thats what i said ! but, as i said, it is up to the trader to prove the fault wasn't present at time of sale, not the consumer !

    Think we are all getting a bit carried away thinking a pdi is a get out of jail card.....it isnt

    My pdi, is to be sure to myself the car is safe, will be reliable, and the majority of things work, if for example, the air con isnt very good, i note it, and tell them,i even check door locks now :rolleyes:

     

    oh! and being meaning to bring this up for ages! if any of you do loose in court, dont forget to ask the judge [remind] for the vehicle back ! seen a couple of cases where a claimant has had money back, and in the heat of the moment the defendant has forgot to ask for car back, and its very difficult to get it [more court cases] back! 

    I think we may be arguing the same side of the coin here. If the consumer wants to exercise their right to a refund within 30 days they must prove the fault was there at the time of sale. If the dealer has been lazy with his paperwork that should be easy. If however the dealer has done a proper pdi, MOT, had an independent garage carry out an inspection AND got the consumer to sign the pdi and receipt saying the goods are without fault and they have been given a test drive and a chance to inspect the car themselves then the consumer will have a hard time proving the fault was there. They HAVE to prove it and they dealer can disprove it. 

    • Like 1

  12. Posted

    3 minutes ago, GreenGiant said:

    +1

    Really guys, its the CRA2015 - I find it amazing that we're still asking questions about this. There is no excuse for not knowing how it works by now.

     

    First 30 days - customer has to prove the fault existed at time of delivery AND to be entitled to the Consumer Rights Act remedies, the fault must render the vehicle not of satisfactory quality, not fit for purpose or not as described.

    Day 31 - 6 months - you have to prove the fault didn't exist.

    Moral of the story: Get your paperwork right or face the consequences.

    +1. Concise and to the point.

  13. Posted

    2 hours ago, BHM said:

    Here’s what to say;

    ”Hello Mr. XXXXX, Sorry but you are mistaken, the warranty was for 6 months, it’s on your paperwork. I’m afraid I cannot help you, it’s your car & you are responsible for it. Thanks & goodbye” 

    The end.

    +1

  14. Posted

    3 minutes ago, R and K Autohouse said:

    Hello guys, just wanted to get advice on one issue i have here, basically customer bought Audi S5 from us over 10 month ago and he purchased 6 month warranty with RAC which he specifically requested.Two Month later after he purchased the car there was a problem with Sound System which we said that we will fix as RAC said that they not covering that, we took amplifier down to a specialists fixed it and returned it back to him, no problem. Ten Month now gone from the day of his purchase and i get a call from him saying that he had 12 month warranty with RAC and he rang them and they said that he wasn't even on the warranty which is a lie as ive checked RAC paperwork and rang them if they had history of this customer and they confirmed that he was on the system but his warranty was for 6 month and not 12 month as he stated. Now this customer asking for his money back as he is having trouble with the car. Any advice would be appreciative

    Thanks

    is the issue he is having now different to the issue which was fixed?

  15. Posted

    25 minutes ago, bcars said:

    Firstly a big thank you to all for the contribution it is much appreciated.

    Now I can see that this forum isn't the norm, i.e. not full of lunatics or sad acts, I am more than happy to share situation, due to search engines picking up on the names of businesses I don't think it wise to share the name of the company or companies involved but will gladly tell you who I am if you PM me.

    OK here we go....a quite genuinely lovely 2016, 19,000 mile, Golf R taken in p/ex from the one and only senior sensible (not an extra from fast & furious) owner, I know we all say it but in the best colour, best spec and unrivalled pedigree, priced bang right hence in stock for only 48 hours. Car has a fully documented VW main dealer, last serviced October 2017 at circa 17,000 miles. Test driven upon appraisal, drives lovely no issues, when it lands in p/ex I drive it again, no issues.

    Due to the full history and no MOT requirement it goes for an RAC supplied Multi-point checklist (part of our dealer status standards), completed independently by an established garage, they tick all the boxes with exception to tyres, reported as 2 -3mm so I fit 4 x new Toyo speed rated quality tyres. Job done.

    A lady from circa 150 miles away makes an enquiry, we have a bit of sport over her p/ex, a 1 owner FVWSH 11 year old MK5 Golf GTI and after a few calls, emails, etc she agrees a deal and pays a deposit, 4 days later she is on for collection.

    Due to the nature of her previous car, the 11 year old slightly dated GTI, and what she is buying I unusually, upon my insistence not hers, take her for a test drive prior to her handing over her money, mainly as I wanted her to understand the dynamics of the "R" and how the different modes work including the Race / Lunatic mode. We went for a test drive on a flying mile or two, up and down hills and across country lanes so the entire spectrum, she has a drive and is very impressed with the car, hence we return and she can't pay her money fast enough, she says bye to her old MK5 GTI and drives home.

    The very same afternoon I get a photograph of her son hanging out of the pano roof and a nice text thanking me for a wonderful car and the buying experience, happy customer.

    I then totally unexpectedly get a text later on Monday to say nice car but there is a creaking, she has been on the net in the night and youtube has a string of MK7 Golf rear suspension issues, she has had friends in the car and they can also hear a creaking noise coming from around the back of the driver's seat area. I obviously responded promptly and told her to arrange to take it into her local VW dealer, the same one she is well known to who supplied and serviced her p/ex the MK5 GTI at least 9 times.

    A little later she confirmed that she has booked it in with them but for me to not to do anything with her old car as it there is a problem she will want a refund, here we go!

    I politely explained that considering the cars, pedigree, full VW history, RAC MPC and the fact the car has over 12 month of the manufacturer's warranty remaining it will get sorted so not to worry.

    The lady then text me to confirm her booking and that she is to go on a diagnostic road test with the technician, at this point it is very evident she has been reading up on protocol and attempting to head toward a refund situation. She has the accompanied road test to report a creak from possibly the pan roof (not the suspension, surprise, surprise) and now a whistle at low acceleration, as we all know it's a Turbo which is typical.

    At this stage I make contact with the dealer to mark their card just in case they try to condemn the car to get her into one of their group stock, my email to the them as below;

    "Dear XXXXXXX, (one of the service team)

     

    With reference to our recent conversation of 09:56 today please would kindly keep me in the loop regarding the Golf R – XXXXXXX, as you are probably aware this is a matter of some urgency as our mutual client, Mrs. XXXXXX XXXXXXXX, is alleging faults with the car, considering the pedigree of the car, i.e. 1 private senior gentleman owner, average to low mileage and that it has a full VW main dealer history, it is as far as we are concerned sold without fault. Although we must confess to not holding a franchise every car sold goes through an independent RAC multi-point check and any reported fault is remedied in advance of handover, it goes without saying this car was sold without fault, this car also had the benefit of 4 x new branded 92Y speed rated tyres, hence any obvious suspension fault (as hinted by Mrs. XXXXXXX) would have been noted and or rectified by both the tyre fitted and or independent RAC related inspection.

     

    The customer also had, upon our insistence not hers, a test drive on Saturday prior to handover and the car was driven by both myself and the customer, again through all modes on a flying mile, up and down hills and across country roads, no fault was heard by either party. The customer then drove the car home and sent me a picture of her son in the car and a kind message to thank me for the car and the buying experience, so you can imagine her alleged claims of fault are a little strange. There can be instances of “buyers remorse” where what are characteristics of a car can be wrongly mistaken as a fault, i.e. a whistle which is evidently typical of a turbo enhanced power unit or they have read up on the consumer act of 2015 and attempt to fabricate fault(s) to gain a refund on a car that they aren’t comfortable with.

     

    It is vital, as to save on financial loss for either related party, that you can report back with the findings as soon as humanly possible. In the rare and usual event of an incurable fault I will obviously have to refund the customer and then pursue VW for my losses, hence it is vital that any declaration made by or on behalf of XXXXXX is one of a most accurate nature as I may have to rely on it in a legal claims procedure, likewise if you report no fault or that it is a characteristic of the MK7 Golf or specifically related to the “R” model I also need written confirmation (email is fine) so I can confidently dismiss any attempt of an unjustified refund.

     

    I apologies for the seriousness of my email but I have experienced once before a similar scenario on a BMW where a fault was claimed which led to a refund but proved inaccurate and the service agent had to compensate accordingly, however I am sure that any alleged fault can be remedied by a dealer of your stature.

     

    Many thanks for your assistance in this matter"

     

    The very latest is that she has a loan car for 2 days as the pano roof creak is to be remedied under warranty, as its a known fault, yet curable one, and the other alleged issue is being look at. 

    My concern here is that how can a quality used car dealer be responsible when a car has a boat load of manufacturer warranty left on it, surely if it has a fault that can be resolved then it is negligence on behalf of the manufacturer????

    As yet I won't know the outcome until close of play or later but interestingly how I can potentially be liable for what could be case of a car built at 5 to 5 on Friday or where the alleged fault is a characteristic of the car and not actually a fault as such.

    I'll keep you all posted

    In this case I would personally buy the r back from her, keep the GTI and move on. This isn’t someone with a case of buyers remorse I don’t think, it’s a known fault which can be repaired under warranty. If she doesn’t want the car repaired, irrespective of the CRA and what she is and isn’t entitled to, i’d Give her a refund. 

    15 minutes ago, NOACROSS said:

    I can't get my head round it.  Surely it's VW's problem not yours! Oh well- good luck! (German crap. Hate all of it. Not like the old days....)

    It's VW's financial problem but as bcars sold the Golf it's on him to deal with the situation as any good dealership would I think.

  16. Posted

    5 minutes ago, grant8064 said:

    No the customer is the solicitor!

    You'd think they'd know better and understand that a ten year old vehicle won't achieve the same MPG as a brand new one tested in lab conditions but hey ho. Given the complaint and a couple of other spurious claims it's a simple refund and resell. Sometimes it's just not worth investing time in these 'people'

    I agree but in that specific case I'd send one letter back saying you do not believe you have misrepresented the car as it's the manufacturer that makes that particular claim regarding MPG and they do so on the basis of selling new cars not used ones and that you won't be entering into any more correspondence on this particular subject. I'm buggered if I'm going through the hassle of buying and reselling the car on the basis of someone else's misinterpretation. 

    2 minutes ago, NOACROSS said:

     

    Wow. I'd tell him to 'go for his life & do his worst'.  Refund?  Really? Another (short term) owner on the log book to explain-paperwork, re-preparation costs etc. 

    I can see why you don't want the headache perhaps, but he's taking the piss.  Free car hire for him is all it is.  Good on you for unwinding it I say.

     

     

    +1

  17. Posted

    Just now, BHM said:

    WRONG. You have to prove the fault wasn’t there at the point of sale - very different. Whether or not you refund is up to you but in theory all they have to allege is a specified fault & reject.

    The best thing I’ve found is to f*** them off - it works 99% of the time.

    Sorry but I beg to differ. In order for the customer to exercise their right to a refund they have to prove the fault was present at the point of sale. If you have not done your job properly this will be easy, the customer will just say "yeah there was a fault with the EML, the dealer told me it was nothing to worry about" or some other excuse.

    If however, you have done your job properly and the customer wants a refund because the EML is on, they can't have a refund unless the can prove the EML was on at the point of sale.

    18 minutes ago, grant8064 said:

    Has there been a daytime TV programme about the CRA recently?

    We've had four this month claiming various stuff...never known it to be so bad.

    The latest one is from a solicitor in a ten year old hatchback claiming we've breached the sales of goods act through misrepresentation because it only does 33mpg and not the 40.1 the manufacturer states :rolleyes:

    Bloody hell. I can't believe someone would actually get a solicitor in for that! I assume it's a no win no fee jobby, surely the solicitor must realise that for their claim to have any weight at all, the car would have to be calibrated, manufacturer test conditions recreated etc? 

  18. Posted

    6 minutes ago, MSP Motors said:

    But a customer is exactly that, a customer. He's not an engineer. Pdi is good for tyre depth, locking wheel nut location, etc, but you can't expect it to save your ass if a serious fault happens with the first 30 days. I just can't see a pdi saving you when sat in front of a judge.

    He doesn't need to be an engineer. He knows there is a fault with the car, it's xyz. He wants to reject the car for a refund but to do so he has to prove the fault was there at the point of sale.

  19. Posted

    12 hours ago, bcars said:

    Presumably there is some protocol where they would have to prove a fault via a recognised third party inspector or any customer could just attempt to get a refund.

    If you have done your dillegence in your prep a customer would find it very hard to prove the fault was there at the point of sale. As I said though, the reality is that as a business you would be doing all you could to remedy the situation, offering to fix the fault etc. It’s only when you were on the end of an unreasonable customer who refused to let you carry out a repair and demanded a refund would you reluctantly stand your ground and get all contractual. Others may see this differently but I personally don’t want the aggro or the bad rep. That said i’d stand my ground if a customer was trying to drum up a reason to get a refund because of buyers remorse or some other unrelated reason. 

    1 hour ago, MSP Motors said:

    I think a lot of emphasis gets put on a pdi. Don't get me wrong, I do a pdi, I just don't believe it acts as proof as there being no fault present at point of sale. How can a customer sign to state there was no fault present at point of sale?

    Maybe I'm different to everyone else, my pdi gets done as soon as I get a vehicle....... It can be months before I sell the car. I never give customers a copy of a pdi as I deem it irrelevant. 

    Within the first 30 days I will break it down like this......

    Is there a significant fault with the car? If so then offer to repair under warranty or refund...

    If there is a minor fault with the car? (98%) offer to put right and no offer of refund. It is always up to the customer which route to take, but I am not prepared to take back a car with another owner because there is a knocking noise coming from the suspension, the airbag light has come on after 7 days, the starter motor has stopped working, etc. These issues are just normal day to day issues that happen on cars. That's why there are thousands upon thousands of garages.... It's a small issue, I'll gladly help you out but if you choose to go the other way than so be it.

    On your pdi form. If you use a pdi form that is comprehensive, states that everything is working as it should and the customer signs the sheet below the carefully worded statement “this car is bloody perfect” (or words to that effect) then that is proof that the fault didn’t exist at the point of sale. It’s up to the customer to prove it did exist, assuming they want a refund. 

     

  22. Posted

    1 hour ago, AutoJacob said:

    My market is £800 - £3000 cars so it's what I would usually buy but I would pay about £800 privately and they usually need little bits doing.

    Citroen C1s / 107s / Aygo's are all shit cars I know but they sell good so it's what I like stocking as they usually fly out if priced right.

    This particular one was being sold by Arnold Clark, which vendors would you avoid?

    Apologies if I'm asking too many questions, I'm not asking to be spoon fed just looking for some honest advice ☺

    I'd avoid multi vendor sales and perhaps controversially, BCA Car Group sales.

    • Like 1

  23. Posted

    3 hours ago, have a word with the wife said:

    unsatisfactory quality, unfit for purpose or not as described, 30 days .

    6 month, you have one shot at repairing it RIGHT. fault is assumed to be present at time of sale unless you can prove otherwise.

    both 30 days and 6 month it is the seller who has to prove fault not present at time of sale, not the consumer, the work is put on our shoulders, thats why we have to, as, respected motor traders, know the cra .

    or 29 days free car hire 

    They have the right to reject the car for a refund but in order to exercise this right they have to prove the fault was there when they purchased the car which if you have done your job correctly, they would find it very hard to do. The fault cannot be assumed to be present at the time of sale if you have a PDI signed by the customer as you have proven that the fault was not there and they have agreed it wasn't by signing to say so, if your PDI is worded correctly.

    The reality of this is that anyone taking this seriously and had a desire to build a good reputation would just sort the issue out for the customer. But if they start to get all shitty and demand a refund they have to prove the fault was present at the point of sale.

    Happy to be corrected but that is my understanding of the situation.

  25. Posted

    I would say auctions aren’t the place to be buying ten year old cars with 90k on. You can do that privately and get it cheaper and do a decent appraisal on it. There’s usually one reason why a car like that is going through an auction and it’s because it’s a shed and people know that when it goes through auction, the buyer won’t know it’s a shed until they are safely away from the vendor with no recourse.