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Roweco
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Posts posted by Roweco
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3 hours ago, MattR said:Well, you learn something every day. I cant see he is entitled to request payment for work he has authorised without your say so. But, with the info given (its not something ive ever thought about before as I only sell cars from my car business), then logically the CRA 2015 does apply as you are a business selling something to a private individual. Bit harsh though.
If he has requested a rejection and refund, then do so if there is a fault with the car. what makes him think the timing chain needs replacing? is it a garage scaring him? Or has he had a warning light come on? He seems determined to get his money off you for the service, is it possible a mate of his with a garage has given an estimate (for work which isnt required) which is roughly double what the customer thinks is what you 'owe'him from the service etc in the hope you'll go 50/50 on this estimate?
Unfortunately the diagnosis is correct. I had him take the car to an RAC approved garage and get an independent report. (Somewhere above)
The big point of contention is the work his garage did in the meantime. Obviously they can’t have had much of a clue as they gave it a full service 30 miles after it being serviced.
I’ve asked him for a full breakdown on the details of the parts fitted. If the parts used weren’t approved for the car or he won’t supply me the information I will contest the rejection on the grounds that this issue wasn’t present until 9 days after having the work carried out by his own garage, which I knew nothing of until after it had been completed.
I want to fair but equally I don’t want to take on issues someone else has caused. It’s an old high mileage car after all!
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Just now, Stalker said:Can you not just chin him and bury him under an extension/patio your working on?
Haha Fred west style, I like it!
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1 hour ago, David Horgan said:Ok so you say the chain was not rattling at 103k , means it must of been changed at some point in its life then .
All 09 /11 TSI engines have chain problems ,
Age and miles are the most obvious signs , rattle on start up is a sign . Lack of oil services is a cause .
If as you say the car was serviced AFTER you sold it this could well be the cause of any chain issues , the VAG oil filters have a one way valve and even they must be fitted correctly or oil starvation is imminent, cheap replicas can and do cause the same problem of oil starvation.
This in turn will affect the chain and tensioner causing a rattle or even a jump of a tooth .
****Tell this guy it was serviced before it left you "invoice proof i hope " so outside interference " EG his fave garage " is the probable cause of his issues so its out of your hands . ****
All the best .
Thankyou! I will make the point to him.
one final question, i’ve been advise by citizens advice I should get something formal in writing from a professional within the motor trade to state this could be the cause of his issues.
Do you have any on paper qualification and fancy jotting a few words for some beer money?! Haha
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2 hours ago, tradex said:I need a triple garage and office building if that helps things, you came here for advice and you may get a project out if it
PM me your details, assuming you are Breckland area?
.....my builder has been abducted by aliens.
Haha I’m chock-a-block I’m afraid and based in Sudbury, Suffolk so a little far out!
Very jealous though, triple garage!, car trade can’t be all bad eh.. hahaha
41 minutes ago, Stalker said:At the bottom of the invoice is states an RAC approval number? Has the customer bought a warranty?
No, when he came back with more issues I asked him to have an independent RAC report done on the car. (So it was less likely to be a £20 to a mate jobby).
Thats the report (plus he had a quote done for good measure.)
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1 minute ago, Dealer1 said:If you refund him ( I would 100%, as you will all ways own that car)
he could also make you collect the Audi from him at your cost and ask you for his service cost back that he has all ready spent on the Audi (any good lawyer will know this)
Do not go to court, as you will 100% loss. (By the way it is not fair don't get me wrong)
** Welcome to being a car dealer **
Bare with me here, so hypothetically speaking if he had of got the car painted purple or put some new wheels on it, would I be liable for that as well? After all doing the work wasn’t the difference between the car being fit for purpose or not. The choice to have a car service some 30 miles after being service without consulting me isn’t something I could control - surely the nature of the work has little relevance?
As above am I responsible as a business seller for any customers spending on a vehicle within 30 days as if it goes wrong I will liable for any outgoings they’ve had in the meantime?!
2 minutes ago, David Horgan said:An Audi A3 /GOLF , Skoda /SEAT petrol TSI engine has shit timing chain problems , its the tensioners that will let go at some point then the chain jumps on starting and either it rattles its nuts off or shits the engine .Its a known problem .
The faults you posted are correlating to the chain requiring a change .
this could have been there after the customer had the service performed , If the garage he used did not fit the correct oil filter it will argevate the chain , if its got the incorrect oil then that will also do the same damage .
Assuming this chain wasn't faulty when you sold it , then i would assume the servicing garage may have caused the fault .
Its a coincidence beyond belief to have a chain go two weeks after you sold it , shit does happen buy i would think one of the services has caused this chain issue , could have been your service or the service the customer has had done too .
If the car has been interfered with by another garage by doing a service then I would point him back to them really .
We haven't sold a TSI petrol engine without changing the chain , that's how bad they are ,
Make sure if you do agree to the chain replacement that it goes to a specialist as they are not an easy job and disaster can occur on start up , .
Welcome to the motor trade ,
Chains are not covered by 90% of warranty companies though and are considered wear and tear items , However good practise is to change the chain if required or Perform a service Correctly on the TSI Petrols
The question now is .
A; Did it rattle before you sold it .
B ; Has some fool who serviced it caused this problem , Either your service or his .
Hi David,
This is great. You obviously have a lot of knowledge and I really appreciate your input.
The car was not rattling prior to sale, he had no issues (other than it running out of fuel) until after he had the service work carried out.
Possibly, he used a local garage of which I’ve looked up. Old school mot centre which he seems to trust with his life. (They or it needed a service, was charged £550 for the pleasure) not RAC approved or anything else from what I can see.
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Lots to consider here, I think I’ll try to get him to make his case and go from there. He hasn’t actually said what he wants yet so that’s probably the first port of call.
I get get the impression offering him a refund for the initial transaction is probably the fair route while ignoring the work he had done outside of my control.
I get the impression he wants to keep the car but wants it like new so this will give him something to consider. Plus it shows willing to fulfil my obligations as a business if he does take me to court.
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Not sure on miles I would guess relatively low so probably not much to deduct.
Just had a full service prior to him buying which I can prove so the majority of work he carried out would be considered unnecessary? Also with a contribution already being accepted surely that puts that to bed?! Work was carried out before I had any info or chance to do it myself.
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11 minutes ago, Arfur Dealy said:This 100%.
OP, (welcome to the motor trade)
You sold an item acquired through your business and then sold it to a member of the public with an invoice is from your business, therefore you cannot dissolve his consumers rights.
Buy it back, get him out of your life and then sell it privately.
I think this is the way to go although if I can tell him to sod off because he’s not got significant enough reason to reject, that’s be more satisfying. My biggest question is is the timing chain a wear and tear item? Would he actually be able to reject the car on these grounds?
Here’s one of the few explanations from a credible source I could find (euro car parts technical)
4 minutes ago, awc1000 said:sold for 3400, but how much did you allow for it in the payment debt?
best to refund, possibly minus some fare usage depending on mileage incurred, sleep is priceless.
True, true.
Obviously I would assume he wouldn’t be untitled to a penny of his expenditure on service and brake pads etc. Etc.?
What would be considered fair deduction for use? £50/week?!
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2 minutes ago, tradex said:Interesting one this.
If I sell a motorcycle thru my business would I be expected to ensure it was fit for purpose?
If I sell a jacuzzi thru my business would I be expected to ensure it was fit for business?
I'm thinking that CRA-2015 would cover anything that you have sold thru your business.....otherwise I may change my name to Norfolk Sheds.....ahh that would still be correct
Unfortunately for me I think you’re correct.
Breaking news: I have the diagnosis
He has also sent a quote to replace the timing chain(over £1k) but I’m struggling to see what relates to the chain on the diagnosis?!
Quote for repairs.
(obviously I’d take the car back and refund before paying out a single penny to this knob)
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Dare I say it; Facebook market place, private advert, private sale, invoice raised by my company.
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Just now, tradex said:He can't have it both ways though. If he treats it as a trade sale then he can't go spending dough on repairs without your say so or giving you the chance to repair.
Question:- was the advert listed as a trade advert or private?
I think it's a case of telling him to take professional counsel.
His first question was ‘are you trade or private’ (should of seen it coming) I replied private as it’s my understanding that’s what I was but I’ve since been educated that because I was selling from my business it’s considered trade.
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3 minutes ago, tradex said:Hmm, so his reasoning is that you sold an asset from a building company, as business to private so he is covered by the CRA-2015, regardless of goods supplied....in a funny way I can see both sides to this.
Again, the price of the car has jack to do with reducing customers rights, shoukd they apply here.
I think we chief super TV on this one?
I’m almost certain he is covered but my question is what are my obligations now? Obviously i’ve rejected his service costs and given a good will gesture as I know they’re classed as fair wear and tear regardless of the fact it was just serviced anyway.
As far as timing chain goes if it does end up being something the report throws up is it something I’m liable for or can he reject the car on these grounds etc.?
The car was/is lovely, I wouldn’t have taken it if it wasn’t. From someone I know well who’s owned for around 3 years.
That said with mileage and age considered is it fair to expect this type of maintenance/wear and tear to be present? Obviously it’s not fresh out of the showroom.
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I took the car as payment for a building job, ie into the name of the company, sold it out of my building company which is why it’s caused an issue. School boy error I know.
No word of I lie I have bent over backwards to try to do the right thing all the way through for this guy and he seems the give an inch take a mile type.
Invoice made out from building company to the guy as an individual.
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Hi everyone,
I’m new, not really a car dealer but ended up in a dilemma where I’m being assumed as one.
I’ve got a building company, I took a car in exchange for some work I did and sold the car on to recover the costs.
The invoice for the car stated ‘sold as seen without guarantee or warranty’ was tried tested etc. Before concluding the deal.
The guy had had a heart attack so I offered as a goodwill gesture to drop it off (100mile round trip). He couldn’t drive it for a week or so but it sat on his drive ready for when he could. In this time he ran it out of fuel. He contacted me to say it’d gone wrong and needed to be looked at by his garage. Long storey short the garage put some fuel in it and it was fine although they insisted on giving the car a full service (The car was service the week before I dropped it off, so this definitely wasn’t needed). A full service, brake pads and a new battery later I’m being asked to fit the bill of £550. I offered £50 as a good will gesture under the understanding this was a full and final settlement as everything replaced were wearing parts. This was accepted by my buyer through gritted teeth.
One week on and I receive a further message saying the car now needs a cam chain replacing amongst a further load of sensors at an estimate of upwards of £500.
I’ve called citizens advice who’ve been helpful in outlining he does have rights regarding this due to me selling from my business.
I’ve asked him to take the car to an RAC approved garage to have a condition report carried out and we could use this as an impartial means to work from.
The car is a 2009 petrol Audi A3 with 103,000 miles, 4 months MOT which sold for £3400
My question:
-Is a timing chain considered fair wear and tear? According to Audi they seem to be lifetime parts although they consider the lifetime of the car to be 8 years or 100,000- 150,000 miles (which it comes in excess of both of these).
-As work has been carried out (Service, potentially not filled up with enough oil etc.) would this void any claim he may have?
-if I accept the car back should I make a deduction for fair usage? (It was on the 28th day he raised the second round of issues).
-The car was sold at less than the private recommended sale value, trade is £4600 private book price is £4000 (according to a report by Parker’s) so he has realised a massive saving yet hopes to still reap the benefits of buying from a trader, which I’m not.
At a little bit of a loose end, any advice?
Thanks in advance!!
Rejecting car after work has been carried out
in General Dealer Chat
Posted · Edited by Roweco
Initially I was honestly of the understanding this was a private sale, I’m not a car dealer so I wasn’t expecting to sell it as if I were. On finding it wasn’t that simple I’m honouring his consumer rights. I have no concern with that as it’s an honest mistake and once bought up to speed I am looking st this as if I’m a dealer.
I accept it is hard for me to prove the issue wasn’t there but I can prove that he’s had work carried out in the meantime which was out of my control.
There’s loads of info out there re the importance of the correct filter being used on these engines and one of first knock on effects is oil starvation. It appears to be a common error made by a number of garages. ‘Looks the same, same size, similar number but has a one way valve built in.’ Shows oil pressure so doesn’t bring the light on. First sign is noise under the bonnet or something else bringing a light on. Which rings all the right bells here.
I would just take the car back to save the hassle but it’s whats been damaged along the way. For all I know I’m taking a car back that now needs a new engine because someone else has cocked up.