BCA - UNDECLARED FAULTS IN CURRENT AUCTION SYSTEM

[Handjamjack 2]

I'd be interested in comments on this situation:

We purchased a Cayman 3.4 through BCA. Once delivered to us, we discovered very quickly that there was a big problem - engine smoking excessively and tapping noise from engine - typical bore scoring issues on this car, which was verified through examination. 

Through a variety of means we discovered that the vehicle had been bought by a trader through BCA and sold to a customer in March. We have a statement from the customer saying that he returned the vehicle to the vendor shortly after purchase due to the bore scoring issue. The trader then put the car back into auction without declaring that there was a significant engine fault. We purchased the car at auction (serviced just 1k miles ago, full service history, MOT etc) and so have ended up with a car that needs 6k of work. If this had been a Ford Fiesta with a slipping clutch that hadn't been declared I would have just taken it on the chin, but a 6k bill for an engine rebuild is hard to swallow.

Both BCA and the vendor don't want to know.

It highlights a big issue that BCA have profited from recently when all auctions take place on line and prices have been high. As buyers we don't have a great deal to go on in normal auctions, but at present we are a) not able to see/hear/examine etc cars physically at auction and b) not able to benefit from any comments the auctioneer might normally make as a car goes in front of them eg they might say that for the benefit of online buyers, the car is noisy and smoking. Sold as seen should read sold as not seen.

The result is that many cars purchased through the current BCA online system are being purchased at higher prices than normal - not just due to demand, but due to the frequent lack of clear information from BCA. 

I'm familiar and understand their terms and conditions, the BCA Assured and Essential Check schemes (from which this car did not benefit).

Some might say that we took a risk on the car knowing it was sold as seen. I believe it was dishonest verging on fraudulent from the vendor in not declaring the fault, and negligent of BCA not to flag up such a big issue on an expensive car.  Anyone been in this situation and managed a successful claim against the vendor?

Thanks in advance, John White

[trade vet 695]

23 minutes ago, Handjamjack said:

I'd be interested in comments on this situation:

We purchased a Cayman 3.4 through BCA. Once delivered to us, we discovered very quickly that there was a big problem - engine smoking excessively and tapping noise from engine - typical bore scoring issues on this car, which was verified through examination. 

Through a variety of means we discovered that the vehicle had been bought by a trader through BCA and sold to a customer in March. We have a statement from the customer saying that he returned the vehicle to the vendor shortly after purchase due to the bore scoring issue. The trader then put the car back into auction without declaring that there was a significant engine fault. We purchased the car at auction (serviced just 1k miles ago, full service history, MOT etc) and so have ended up with a car that needs 6k of work. If this had been a Ford Fiesta with a slipping clutch that hadn't been declared I would have just taken it on the chin, but a 6k bill for an engine rebuild is hard to swallow.

Both BCA and the vendor don't want to know.

It highlights a big issue that BCA have profited from recently when all auctions take place on line and prices have been high. As buyers we don't have a great deal to go on in normal auctions, but at present we are a) not able to see/hear/examine etc cars physically at auction and b) not able to benefit from any comments the auctioneer might normally make as a car goes in front of them eg they might say that for the benefit of online buyers, the car is noisy and smoking. Sold as seen should read sold as not seen.

The result is that many cars purchased through the current BCA online system are being purchased at higher prices than normal - not just due to demand, but due to the frequent lack of clear information from BCA. 

I'm familiar and understand their terms and conditions, the BCA Assured and Essential Check schemes (from which this car did not benefit).

Some might say that we took a risk on the car knowing it was sold as seen. I believe it was dishonest verging on fraudulent from the vendor in not declaring the fault, and negligent of BCA not to flag up such a big issue on an expensive car.  Anyone been in this situation and managed a successful claim against the vendor?

Thanks in advance, John White

Ullo John got a new motor .....( sorry couldn’t resist ) Firstly are you a car dealer and do you buy regularly from BCA.What section was the car sold in and how was it described.

[Rory RSC 596]

The car has to be as described. Any known faults must be declared. It was a known fault. You have proved its a known fault. 

Escalate to a branch manager. Unfortunately with these things being nice, respectful and pleasant gets you know where you have to be a bit of a dick to get resolution.

 

[Frank Cannon 812]

Put it back in the ring. 

If you insist on buying a non inspected car thru multi source though.....you win some, you loose some, risk and reward. 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Frank Cannon

[Handjamjack 2]

1 hour ago, trade vet said:

Ullo John got a new motor .....( sorry couldn’t resist ) Firstly are you a car dealer and do you buy regularly from BCA.What section was the car sold in and how was it described.

Nice one - doesn't sound quite right in my northern accent though! Yes, I buy 100+ cars per annum from BCA, sold in a multi vendor category, just the usual basic description with no mention of defects.

 

1 hour ago, Rory RSC said:

The car has to be as described. Any known faults must be declared. It was a known fault. You have proved its a known fault. 

Escalate to a branch manager. Unfortunately with these things being nice, respectful and pleasant gets you know where you have to be a bit of a dick to get resolution.

 

Thanks for that - I've tried to be as much of a pain in the arse to BCA as possible and escalated it to the CEO - always worth a try.

[justina3 518]

As i read it your claim would be against BCA as its them who sold you a car there defense would be they didnt know it had a fault by your own admission "Through a variety of means we discovered that the vehicle had been bought by a trader through BCA and sold to a customer in March. The trader then put the car back into auction without declaring that there was a significant engine fault."

Also if you where to bring a case would your "through a variety of means" stand up in court with all the GDPR rules being swung around the place. 

Morally you clearly have the high ground sadly i cant see it going anywhere. 

 

[It's me 609]

you lose

sorry

[poor-trader 15]

Sadly the only way BCA and Manheim will stop offering cars online with zero assurance and (in some case at BCA) no proper condition report either is if people stop bidding on them. The day they notice inspected cars selling and non-inspected cars not selling will be the day they do something about it. 

 

[Halfpenny 114]

I think you have close to no chance of a successful claim.  Online,  multi-source non-inspected is always going to be 'some you win, some you lose'.  Sorry to sound unsympathetic.

[trade vet 695]

Some people might say that a professional car dealer buying a non assured car from an unknown vendor in a on line auction is taking a huge risk and there is little or no recourse.

However if you can prove that it was the same vendor who had re entered it after buying it at the same auction and not declared a major known fault ,that may be a different matter.
BCA state on their latest T@C’s that online auction buyers have more rights so when a seller has failed to declare ‘ a major known fault ‘ you may have a case.

I would be looking at making a Small Claims Court claim against BCA joined by the vendor. BCA are only agents for the vendor so they are  indemnified.I did the same over a Leaseplan car and got awarded about 3 grand.
 

 

 

[Tony F 38]

6k engine rebuild is a big hit to take and yes we all take risks, but it’s no excuse for deception  

Following on from TVs post above. 
A vendor cannot use and hide behind  the ‘sold as seen’ disclaimer to absolve them from liability when selling at auction. 
The key point here is that if you can 100% prove that the vendors knowingly withheld critical and adverse information about a known fault when offering the car for sale, then I believe you will have a pretty watertight case if you take the vendors to court. It is simply deception. 
In cases such as this, the auction is simply an agent and will not be held liable in a court. They may step in to mediate, but that depends who they favour most, you or the seller. Inform the auction that you have written evidence that the vendor witheld information, and that you now Intend to write directly to the vendor if auction is unable to help, putting the vendors on notice of your intention to issue a summons. 
In the meantime ask the auction for a copy of the Vendors entry form. Any emails you send it’s worth copying in lynn.knight at bca as she is their legal counsel. Also see if you can find out who the last owner was (old invoices?) before the present one was. The fault would have been present in their ownership and its possible they could have disposed of the car to Wbac.com, as this could mean bca may have had prior knowledge of the fault too. 

 I have often been in the same situation over the years with main dealers or wbac, but never an Indy seller as I don’t buy multi vendor cars. 
 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Tony F
Edit and adding

[MJG50 7]

This is really interesting to hear as I went through a similar experience last year.

To cut a long story short, I bought a Jag from Manheim which had the 39/39 Sure Check on the website but not on the windscreen and I wasn't charged the Silver Check fee on the invoice. When paying for the car, I was told it wasn't under Sure Check. I had a very good look at the car starting up and as it went through and all looked and sounded fine. As soon as I drove out the gates, the EML came on and there was a misfire. I spent £1k getting the misfire sorted at a main dealer and a further £500 on paintwork. Despite the main dealer assuring me the car was now fine, it just didn't feel right so I contacted the main dealer that entered the car into the auction (not the local one I went to and spent £1k) and I got a copy of an invoice to the previous registered owner diagnosing a head gasket was needed. So the main dealer that entered the car knew it needed a head gasket (at least a £4k job). I have heard of main dealer PX cars being entered into auctions direct from their workshop needing loads of work that wouldn't be noticed at the auction but up until last year I've never bought one. I ended up selling the car to a mechanic who reckoned he could change the head himself. 

At the time though, I was so depressed with it all that I didn't seriously consider kicking up a fuss to the auction and/or vendor. But having read these forum comments tonight, I probably should have pursued it. Auctions always seem a bit of a grey area though - if you enter a car, you are asked to declare any known faults yet if you buy a car that is 'sold as seen' you seem to have absolutely no comeback! So declaring any faults seems a bit pointless from the vendor's point of view.

I was so annoyed with this experience that I haven't bought anything since! I am still intending to go back into the trade but the current situation of not being able to attend auctions in person has delayed my return to buying cars. It seems highly likely to me though that physical auctions to attend will never happen again as BCA and Manheim are doing so well with online only and I'm sure they were aiming to make their sales online only some time ago. I've only ever bought one car online and it arrived with a massive scratch in the middle of the driver's door - possibly put there by a rival bidder when the car was in the compound as it definitely wasn't visible in the photos. I appreciate that a lot of dealers have been buying all their stock online only for years but I've only ever operated in a very small way since closing my pitch many years ago.

That's the other thing that put me off complaining to Manheim, I haven't bought many from them so they wouldn't be too concerned if I didn't buy anymore! Being rational though, I think I was very unlucky as I've spoken to a few dealers who claim to have bought literally 100s of main dealer PXs at the block with no major issues. Ideally, I'd prefer to buy ex lease stuff but I tend to do better with unusual rare stuff and naturally ex lease is all mainstream tackle with few if any options. I guess it's the old once bitten, twice shy but ultimately I'd like to start buying and selling again. In the old days if I made a loss, it motivated me to buy something else fast to recoup the loss.

Edited July 29, 2020 by MJG50

[XDR 15]

OP - I generally feel for you, especially with a 6k bill - that’s a stinger!

However, in our trade... we live by the good old saying “no risk, no reward”. Surely buying a high value vehicle from multivendor should ring alarm bells?
 

We all know the ratio of it being a dodgy car to it being retail ready is heavily weighted to one side.

I may sound like a d*ck, but you took the risk (which other seasoned buyers wouldn’t), and unfortunately on this one you got burnt. 

 

PS - I once saw a multivendor C63 2008/2009 at Measham - with high miles and category D marker.  It went for £8,000.00 - did I bid? Nope because of the vendor.... was it cheap? HELL YEAH!!!

 

[Mojo121 229]

Disagree with all this “you pays your money you takes your chance” conjecture, which is always the way the trade defends the auction sticking it to them. All well and good in an AUCTION HALL but this is online. It’s like an abuse victim defending their partner “they can’t help it they are what they are”. It’s utter bollocks and we need a united front against this.

What the poor chap is asking, which is what we need to deal with in this trade before with online auctions it all gets out of hand, is LEGALLY can the auctions sell a car ONLINE when clearly the car has a major issue and then wash their hands of it while receiving good money for it?

I’ve been watching how a lot of vendors deal with selling a knackered car online and I’m convinced it’s vendor policy and not auction because it’s not uniform. TC Harrison, for example, on their listings note engine noisy, gearbox issue etc. How can one vendor note engine noisy and the next not when/ if the engine is noisy? My implication being that the auction house should have the same standards throughout, shouldn’t they? I would say it’s misrepresentation or misleading. Worse over, when the auction house OWNS the vendor in question UKCGR etc has met the vendor and likely been informed directly of issues. Has anyone got a knackered car we can sell to them, faults disclosed, video the conversation and see what it turns up at auction like?

I’m obviously not a solicitor but I feel as though if someone has the balls to take this to court it could set a new precedent, vendors like TC Harrison are probably already aware of some legal grey area.

[Frank Cannon 812]

Ohh come on FFS.

If you want to buy 'all good' cars at auction, avoid the car auction, buy retail and you even get a free balloon. 

Having a proper fit for purpose PDI inspection prior to sale is going cost a LOT of money and to my mind is unworkable but, if it did could be made to work you need think this thru a little. Where is the value to the vendor and, if you think there are too many civilians at auction now......

PS.....there can't be many dealers on here that haven't put a wrong urn in the block, got me out the shite many times and long may it continue. Or to be brutal buyer beware, a greedy punter has saved my bacon. 

PPS, I don't buy that a seasoned trader, buying hundreds of cars every year, shapes up for a lumpy motor, that's finest german tat and prestige german tat, in multi source, unassured but assumed a long MOT, full service history, service prior to sale is any guarantee of condition, then cries that the auction system is corrupt when it's not a peach....see retail with balloons. 

[Rory RSC 596]

9 hours ago, MJG50 said:

This is really interesting to hear as I went through a similar experience last year.

To cut a long story short, I bought a Jag from Manheim which had the 39/39 Sure Check on the website but not on the windscreen and I wasn't charged the Silver Check fee on the invoice. When paying for the car, I was told it wasn't under Sure Check. I had a very good look at the car starting up and as it went through and all looked and sounded fine. As soon as I drove out the gates, the EML came on and there was a misfire. I spent £1k getting the misfire sorted at a main dealer and a further £500 on paintwork. Despite the main dealer assuring me the car was now fine, it just didn't feel right so I contacted the main dealer that entered the car into the auction (not the local one I went to and spent £1k) and I got a copy of an invoice to the previous registered owner diagnosing a head gasket was needed. So the main dealer that entered the car knew it needed a head gasket (at least a £4k job). I have heard of main dealer PX cars being entered into auctions direct from their workshop needing loads of work that wouldn't be noticed at the auction but up until last year I've never bought one. I ended up selling the car to a mechanic who reckoned he could change the head himself. 

At the time though, I was so depressed with it all that I didn't seriously consider kicking up a fuss to the auction and/or vendor. But having read these forum comments tonight, I probably should have pursued it. Auctions always seem a bit of a grey area though - if you enter a car, you are asked to declare any known faults yet if you buy a car that is 'sold as seen' you seem to have absolutely no comeback! So declaring any faults seems a bit pointless from the vendor's point of view.

I was so annoyed with this experience that I haven't bought anything since! I am still intending to go back into the trade but the current situation of not being able to attend auctions in person has delayed my return to buying cars. It seems highly likely to me though that physical auctions to attend will never happen again as BCA and Manheim are doing so well with online only and I'm sure they were aiming to make their sales online only some time ago. I've only ever bought one car online and it arrived with a massive scratch in the middle of the driver's door - possibly put there by a rival bidder when the car was in the compound as it definitely wasn't visible in the photos. I appreciate that a lot of dealers have been buying all their stock online only for years but I've only ever operated in a very small way since closing my pitch many years ago.

That's the other thing that put me off complaining to Manheim, I haven't bought many from them so they wouldn't be too concerned if I didn't buy anymore! Being rational though, I think I was very unlucky as I've spoken to a few dealers who claim to have bought literally 100s of main dealer PXs at the block with no major issues. Ideally, I'd prefer to buy ex lease stuff but I tend to do better with unusual rare stuff and naturally ex lease is all mainstream tackle with few if any options. I guess it's the old once bitten, twice shy but ultimately I'd like to start buying and selling again. In the old days if I made a loss, it motivated me to buy something else fast to recoup the loss.

Got to learn to take a loss and bounce back in this business.  Can't over celebrate the wins or dwell on the losses for too long.

[trade vet 695]

While I think we all agree that John has dropped a major clanger,I think most of us in a similar situation would try to mitigate the loss.In this case BCA have treated this as an ‘ as seen sale ‘.However,the legal definition for ‘as seen’ or ‘as is ‘  is that the buyer has to be given an opportunity to make an inspection which was impossible in this case as this purchase was via an online or Eauction.BCA have therefore stated that in their Online Sales T&C’s that buyers rights have now been varied ( Clause 5 B sub section b ).This could imply that your rights are extended from the BCA general T&C’s ( Clause 15 A sub section 2 (ii) which refers to material misrepresentation and major mechanical defects not disclosed by the auctioneer.

However first of all and prior to any Small Claims Court procedure it is important that John must use the BCA Live Online Dispute Resolution and Arbitration Policy or LODRAP ( which I have just discovered ) or a court claim could fail.

Good luck John,it’s worth a go.

 

[It's me 609]

3 hours ago, trade vet said:

While I think we all agree that John has dropped a major clanger,I think most of us in a similar situation would try to mitigate the loss.In this case BCA have treated this as an ‘ as seen sale ‘.However,the legal definition for ‘as seen’ or ‘as is ‘  is that the buyer has to be given an opportunity to make an inspection which was impossible in this case as this purchase was via an online or Eauction.BCA have therefore stated that in their Online Sales T&C’s that buyers rights have now been varied ( Clause 5 B sub section b ).This could imply that your rights are extended from the BCA general T&C’s ( Clause 15 A sub section 2 (ii) which refers to material misrepresentation and major mechanical defects not disclosed by the auctioneer.

However first of all and prior to any Small Claims Court procedure it is important that John must use the BCA Live Online Dispute Resolution and Arbitration Policy or LODRAP ( which I have just discovered ) or a court claim could fail.

Good luck John,it’s worth a go.

 

LODRAP

ha,im sure someting will fit here

[David Horgan 564]

Multi Vendor was the warning signs wasn't it really especially with a Cayman , double especially with that 3.4 engine which is known for being shite , we all know the risk don't we , some you win most you lose .

saying that 6k on the chin is hard to take too and i do feel for you .

Do i see that going anywhere , no i don't I'm afraid not with a BCA clam , auction sold as seen .

bang it back in would be my approach , but would you declare it or not as faulty is the question isn't it . 

 

[Dave2302 387]

46 minutes ago, It's me said:

LODRAP

/\ /\ /\ AC smack bang in the middle

Whilst I too feel sorry for the OP, its a learned lesson, move on, don't do it again

FFS come on fellas, who in their right mind would have bought that fuckin' porker unseen auction sold as seen ?

OK, I'll start that ball rolling, I wouldn't !!

[Halfpenny 114]

6 hours ago, Dave2302 said:

 

FFS come on fellas, who in their right mind would have bought that fuckin' porker unseen auction sold as seen ?

OK, I'll start that ball rolling, I wouldn't !!

Well in about 40 years I've bought my fair share of scrap. Years back it used to motors full of P38 and old newspaper.  Recently had an MG with engine management fault we gave up on.  However the OP's Porsche would have a giant red flag on it for me. 

[trade vet 695]

12 minutes ago, Halfpenny said:

Well in about 40 years I've bought my fair share of scrap. Years back it used to motors full of P38 and old newspaper.  Recently had an MG with engine management fault we gave up on.  However the OP's Porsche would have a giant red flag on it for me. 

I can remember taking stuff to the paintshop and the painter saying ‘ what do you want me to do with the wing it’s rotted right through ‘ and replying ‘ just fill it with Mary Bakers ‘.Mary Baker had her own cooking programme and she advertised her own Cake Spongemix.

[Tony F 38]

7 hours ago, David Horgan said:

bang it back in would be my approach , but would you declare it or not as faulty is the question isn't it . 

If he puts it back in the auction , then bca will insist on him declaring the fault now that they have been made aware of it. 
He will need to use a different auction house if he were to take that route. 

[Dave2302 387]

3rd Party Fire and Rust might turn a profit

[Frank Cannon 812]

13 hours ago, Tony F said:

If he puts it back in the auction , then bca will insist on him declaring the fault now that they have been made aware of it. 
He will need to use a different auction house if he were to take that route. 

I think the OP will insist on it being listed as a wrong ern, it's good thing to take the moral high road at times, on other 'roads' it can be very costly though.