Customer wants refund, advice please

[tradegirl 112]

Hi everyone. I need some advice please. We sold a 2007 320i coupe with 69950 miles on the clock with FSH until 2016

We MOT'd it and covered 200 miles in it prior to sale, no problems whatsoever. A customer came, test drove, all good, and he got a good price for it due to a minor dent on the door.

We sold it on Saturday and he contacted me the following Thursday with a video showing the EML on and the engine shaking a bit.

He took it to a BMW specialist today (Friday) who found Cylinder 2 misfire, as well as other codes (nox etc). First he said £1000 to fix and then the official quote to get the nox, thermostat, cat and o2 sensor repaired (funnily enough no injectors or coils quoted) is £2030.

I have spoken to a BMW specialist that we use,who said that the first step any mechanic would take is to fix the cylinder misfire, and that the other codes would be resulting from that. And that a misfire repair would be £500 MAX even if using BMW parts and generous labour.

The customer wants a refund on the car.

He's had it 6 days. We have offered to have the car repaired by our mechanic. Legally, where do we stand? In your experience what should we do?

He says it requires a new catalyst and that is £800 and insists he wants a refund on the car.

This has never happened before, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks in advance.

[umesh 336]

Personally Give refund , get car back sort it and resell. #MyThoughts 

[Phil H 124]

refund and move on, get it fixed and sell it to someone else.

[tradegirl 112]

Thanks for the replies.

What could happen if I keep offering a repair and he wants a refund?

Do I not have the right to offer a refund first?

[justina3 518]

Long winded fight and possibly a court case all depends how far they want to take it, as advised i would get it back asap and send them on there way, he shouldnt have taken it to a third party but its all to common these days. 

 

 

[Trident 24]

Refund, less mileage useage at 40-50 pence per mile, you won't have a problem reselling it and the repairs will be in your full control. It just isn't worth the battle so soon after he has taken ownership.  We also have it in the warranty that the vehicle is returned at customers expense.  

[Mojo121 229]

Have you rang them and just had a chat? I'd say "look, we want to fix it and keep you happy - problems with car can happen, but it's a good car and I'd like you to be able to enjoy it. The issue is the cost of repairs that you've quoted are at a retail level and obviously being in trade we can fix it much more cost effectively - garages offer us reduced rates. Can you give us one chance to fix it - we have some very good mechanics and we'll tell you exactly what the problem is - if you get the car back and you're still not happy with it I'll give you a refund. That's fair isn't it?"

If they refuse what you've offered over the phone I'd say they just want their money back. I'd confirm what I said over the phone in writing and then state my suspicion is simply they are using this fault as an excuse to get a refund.

[tradegirl 112]

He's insistent that he wants a refund. Rejecting any offer to get the car repaired by a BMW specialist here by us.

My business partner who's a little braver than me says to tell him that's all we can offer and let him proceed to the courts if he wants to.

Wish me luck!

[andymc1973 199]

first 30 days so you're goosed, redund and move on

[justina3 518]

Cant see why you would risk the court route even if you win you will still have to repair the car and pay your own legal costs, loss of time stress the list kind of goes on. 

Bet you a fiver even if you repair it next week something else will go wrong call me mystic meg but once there at this stage 9.9 times out of 10 nothing will be good enough, you will get phone call after phone call.

[grant8064 219]

Why on earth would you go to court? Even I would side with the punter in this instance. 

The product developed a major fault within less than a week and the customer, quite understandably, has lost faith and wants to move on with a refund in hand.

Get it back, refund, repair, re-sell.

Really simple IMO.

 

[tradegirl 112]

It's just frustrating and suspicious that we have in good faith offered to have the misfire repaired at a BMW specialist, and the customer is just insisting over and over on a refund. I have sent the fault codes to the specialist who says it's more than likely an injector/coil pack and that the quote is way inflated.

The quote doesn't even address the misfire. It has no quote for injectors or a coil pack. It goes straight to cat and nox sensor etc.

I have relayed all the information. How am I expected to give him a refund no questions asked??

If it's a simple injector/coil pack fault and I have offered over and over to repair it, can he take court action? Just as simple as that?

[trade vet 697]

Hi Trade Girl,you have had good advice from experienced 'hard boiled' car dealers.If you got this much advice from a solicitor,it would cost you a grand! Don't dither,unwind the deal,move on ........

[tradegirl 112]

Thanks everyone, and thanks Tradex for the peace of mind.

We've been in the trade for 4 years, but believe it or not, this has never happened before. Not someone rejecting repair and threatening legal action instead.

We've got a solicitor friend and I'll speak to him later today for further advice as well.

Fingers crossed!

[tradegirl 112]

Hi everyone. He's now saying he'll accept the repair, but that we should collect it and drop it 80 miles there and 80 back. What would you do?

[GreenGiant 287]

There does still seem to be a fair bit of missing knowledge within the Trade with regards to CRA15

I think it would be beneficial to all traders if they spent a few hours reading and understanding the Act. I'm not judging this or any case, but there are a few fundamental facts about CRA15 that we should all have grasped by now, which ought to have rendered this thread irrelevant. Here's a few:

• The Consumer Rights Act 2015 applies to both new and used vehicles, but does not apply to contracts between manufacturer and the retailer. These business to business transactions remain subject the usual contract rules and the bits of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 that remain. This Act is wholly for consumers – that is those individuals “acting for purposes that are wholly or mainly outside that individual’s trade, business, craft or profession”, so for example, a driving instructor who mainly uses his car for teaching is unlikely to be covered by the provisions of the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

• Customers should not be able to reject for just any fault. To be entitled to Consumer Rights Act remedies, the fault must render the vehicle not of satisfactory quality, not fit for purpose or not as described.

• If a consumer complains of a fault with the vehicle in the first 30 days, they will be entitled to a refund. They can ask for a repair, but they are not obliged to accept a repair and can simply insist on a refund which you will be legally obliged to give.
  The slight saving grace for dealers is that it is down to the consumer to show there is a fault and that it was present at the time of delivery.

• The CRA basically says that unless the contract states that the customer must return the goods for a refund, the customer only has to make the car available for collection and so you can insist on the consumer returning the car if that term is written into the contract. 

• Any agreed refund needs to be paid ‘without undue delay’ (but not before you have the car back) and at the latest within 14 days of the agreement to refund, as set out in Section 20 of the Consumer Rights Act.

• If a dealer does agree to take a car back, they can most certainly make a deduction for usage.

 

 

[tradegirl 112]

8 minutes ago, GreenGiant said:

There does still seem to be a fair bit of missing knowledge within the Trade with regards to CRA15

I think it would be beneficial to all traders if they spent a few hours reading and understanding the Act. I'm not judging this or any case, but there are a few fundamental facts about CRA15 that we should all have grasped by now, which ought to have rendered this thread irrelevant. Here's a few:

• The Consumer Rights Act 2015 applies to both new and used vehicles, but does not apply to contracts between manufacturer and the retailer. These business to business transactions remain subject the usual contract rules and the bits of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 that remain. This Act is wholly for consumers – that is those individuals “acting for purposes that are wholly or mainly outside that individual’s trade, business, craft or profession”, so for example, a driving instructor who mainly uses his car for teaching is unlikely to be covered by the provisions of the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

• Customers should not be able to reject for just any fault. To be entitled to Consumer Rights Act remedies, the fault must render the vehicle not of satisfactory quality, not fit for purpose or not as described.

• If a consumer complains of a fault with the vehicle in the first 30 days, they will be entitled to a refund. They can ask for a repair, but they are not obliged to accept a repair and can simply insist on a refund which you will be legally obliged to give.
  The slight saving grace for dealers is that it is down to the consumer to show there is a fault and that it was present at the time of delivery.

• The CRA basically says that unless the contract states that the customer must return the goods for a refund, the customer only has to make the car available for collection and so you can insist on the consumer returning the car if that term is written into the contract. 

• Any agreed refund needs to be paid ‘without undue delay’ (but not before you have the car back) and at the latest within 14 days of the agreement to refund, as set out in Section 20 of the Consumer Rights Act.

• If a dealer does agree to take a car back, they can most certainly make a deduction for usage.

 

 

Thank you Green Giant. There was nothing written into the contract. So we have to collect and deliver the vehicle back to him?

[andymc1973 199]

so if a fault renders the car unfit for purpose in the first 30 days its a refund

[SC Derby 259]

No not at all - the customer has to PROVE it was there at the time you supplied them the car. It they can and you indeed did supply them a car with a major fault then yes they can reject 

We must have been over this 50 times  

[andymc1973 199]

51 i think

[have a word with the wife 299]

3 hours ago, tradegirl said:

Thanks everyone, and thanks Tradex for the peace of mind.

We've been in the trade for 4 years, but believe it or not, this has never happened before. Not someone rejecting repair and threatening legal action instead.

We've got a solicitor friend and I'll speak to him later today for further advice as well.

Fingers crossed!

said this before, so here we go again, invoice, so many just buy 100 carbon copy invoices either from ebay or car auction site salespeople, these are simply not good enough, and most do not comply anyway, basic simple terms, "who to contact in first instance" written on your invoice immediately is your defence to " ive had it in at jo bloggs autos and he says bla bla "    you quote = There was nothing written into the contract.  so change your invoice 

solicitor friend, make sure he knows consumer contract law, if he does, reword your invoice with him/her.

welcome to forum and dont let the whatsits grind you down 

[tradegirl 112]

Bugger, bugger, bugger, bugger.

So I'm not even obliged to repair the car??

Just paid for a transportation company to bring the car to us for repair and to drop it back to him. Damn, I wish I held out until I saw these last few replies.

All these new consumer laws are confusing.

Edited June 30, 2017 by tradegirl
typo

[andymc1973 199]

you do have to repair the car

[tradegirl 112]

1 hour ago, SC Derby said:

No not at all - the customer has to PROVE it was there at the time you supplied them the car. It they can and you indeed did supply them a car with a major fault then yes they can reject 

We must have been over this 50 times  

I wish I knew this a couple of hours ago. This guy has been messaging and calling all day non-stop getting legal on me, and twisting my words to imply that there was a misfire at the point of sale and that I knew about it. Had I known this I would have told him to take a running leap. Not because a customer shouldn't have a reliable car, but because of his attitude. I'll remember this for the future. Thank you SC Derby.

57 minutes ago, tradex said:

Plus one:- major fault being the important bit, we are dealing with a 10 year old car, a coil pack going down is not a major fault....plenty of test cases to prove this....otherwise a bulb could be a reason for rejection. Gearbox dropping drive OK. Obviously a new car would seen differently to a 10 year old shed.

Also, is not unreasonable to ask the customer to return the car for repair, unless it is not in a drivable condition and even then it can be a point of negociation. A reasonable court isn't going to ask a trader to collect a car from a customer, whom has chosen to travel from the other side of the country. Breakdown cover is available to all bar a few at a reasonable price and the older/higher miles the car the more reasonable one would expect a customer to cover themself for the eventuality of failure.

....risk and reward...buy new if you want bumper to bumper cover with bells and whistles, or choose to buy cheap and take a calculated risk..

It's all about what a reasonable person would find acceptable.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/part/1/enacted

I knew none of this. Thankfully I found a good deal on transportation, but I'm still peeved because this customer didn't deserve a penny more out of our pockets than necessary. Because he was being a complete a-hole. Should have made him bring it himself. Thanks Tradex.

3 minutes ago, andymc1973 said:

you do have to repair the car

Oh..phew. I thought I'd just agreed to something I didn't have to do! Thank you andy

[NoMargin 11]

Now you have the car just offer him a refund, deduct mileage etc as someone has already said..... First time in 4 years.. That's excellent, now just take the hit and move on. 

If you repair and give it back to him, I just can't help thinking it won't be the last you hear from him.